Religion?

[Deleted]

Steve's final assessment is something I find very heartwarming. Personally, I am very disturbed by the idea of an organizing god. I suppose my belief is much more centered around personal belief, and, as Claxus stated, 'the truth is what you want to believe' perhaps phrased a little more scientifically. I can respect both of those.

May 11, 2013 19:20:54 GMT Metal said:

See you refer to it as a huge unsolvable paradox. That was kind of my point. Why waste time worrying about things that dont matter. The point is that there is a God, who verily loves you even though you are flawed and broken. If you keep worrying about how he exists or why he exists, or where he began, your going to miss the blessings he has for you. That peace you cant seem to find about things. Etc. My point is, can you afford to waste your whole life worrying? Because the reality is that hell is hot, and your going to be very angry in the event you wind up there. Angry with yourself because the truth was right there the whole time.

This, not quite so much, and this may need a larger response.

My thesis is in itself a paradox, in that it is in itself a paradox both resolved and unproved. It hinges on events at the quantum level not being in a strict order of events, which in itself has not been definitively proven, though until proven otherwise I choose to believe this.

Now then...
in case you haven't noticed, the universe is the place in which we live. So wondering about how it began and how it works definitely, 200% matters. What is existence without justifying that existence in itself? You'd simply live the life of a background character. For instance, I could get a good office job, a wife, and a kid, and die old, but millions of other people have lead that same life. How can I justify such an existence when I already know the beginning the middle and the end?
What I'm trying to get at here is that even if I never truly find an answer outside of the current theories which are unresolved, my life will be justified since I never gave up.
Luckily for me, I am no longer wondering. My theory is resolved, it isn't perfect, isn't proven, but I personally believe that it makes more sense than the current theories and that's what matters.
As such, I can go onwards with my belief and think about 'what matters.' No problems asked.
Luckily for me, as society evolves, new evidence will arise which will support and destroy the theory, and after that it would take mere days of thought out of my life to reshape them with my knew knowledge in mind.

Furthermore, 'even though I am flawed and broken' is slightly uncalled for, even if it is humanity as a whole you refer to. Isn't a flaw merely a quirk? 'Flaws' are decided by an ever changing society.
For example, killing is against the law and is wrong.
However killing enemy soldiers during war time is not wrong, furthermore god somehow gets a free pass killing us in the great flood, as proposed by the bible.
"But we were evil and deserved to be killed!" you say.
What if I were to go all Light Yagami and kill thousands of criminals? Is that truly any different?
But perhaps I have overstepped my bounds a little. My intention was never to attack Christianity (At least not directly) and I don't wish to debate ethics at this time.

Finally, I see far less evidence for heaven and hell than I do for god, so I'm not the least bit worried about eternal damnation at this time, unless a soul goes into the centre of the earth or something.
Finally, if my theory holds any water, then I can create my own blessings and life just fine on my own, but thank him kindly for the offer if you ever get the chance.

[Metal]

Well i cant force you to believe what i do. And
I wouldnt know how to do that precisely anyways. But i will close in saying a) ive watched loads of tv and movies, and i have determined that without background characters those things wouldnt be any
Good. Every character no matter if it is the main character or the guy who is in ten minutes of one episode of a 100 episode show, has a role to play, and that role holds
A significant amount of significance.

And that b) i have found my truth, and i call it truth not because it is true now, but because it has a history of being true, (which i am happy to discuss at length via pm, because frankly it is too long to post here. ) and i am no less happy having "given up" the search than i was searching. I have found the point of my existence, my truth if you will, and my hope is that one day you have that same peace about yours.

[Stove]

May 11, 2013 22:03:34 GMT @alberenza said:

Steve's final assessment is something I find very heartwarming. Personally, I am very disturbed by the idea of an organizing god. I suppose my belief is much more centered around personal belief, and, as Claxus stated, 'the truth is what you want to believe' perhaps phrased a little more scientifically. I can respect both of those.

May 11, 2013 19:20:54 GMT Metal said:

See you refer to it as a huge unsolvable paradox. That was kind of my point. Why waste time worrying about things that dont matter. The point is that there is a God, who verily loves you even though you are flawed and broken. If you keep worrying about how he exists or why he exists, or where he began, your going to miss the blessings he has for you. That peace you cant seem to find about things. Etc. My point is, can you afford to waste your whole life worrying? Because the reality is that hell is hot, and your going to be very angry in the event you wind up there. Angry with yourself because the truth was right there the whole time.

This, not quite so much, and this may need a larger response.

My thesis is in itself a paradox, in that it is in itself a paradox both resolved and unproved. It hinges on events at the quantum level not being in a strict order of events, which in itself has not been definitively proven, though until proven otherwise I choose to believe this.

Now then...
in case you haven't noticed, the universe is the place in which we live. So wondering about how it began and how it works definitely, 200% matters. What is existence without justifying that existence in itself? You'd simply live the life of a background character. For instance, I could get a good office job, a wife, and a kid, and die old, but millions of other people have lead that same life. How can I justify such an existence when I already know the beginning the middle and the end?
What I'm trying to get at here is that even if I never truly find an answer outside of the current theories which are unresolved, my life will be justified since I never gave up.
Luckily for me, I am no longer wondering. My theory is resolved, it isn't perfect, isn't proven, but I personally believe that it makes more sense than the current theories and that's what matters.
As such, I can go onwards with my belief and think about 'what matters.' No problems asked.
Luckily for me, as society evolves, new evidence will arise which will support and destroy the theory, and after that it would take mere days of thought out of my life to reshape them with my knew knowledge in mind.

Furthermore, 'even though I am flawed and broken' is slightly uncalled for, even if it is humanity as a whole you refer to. Isn't a flaw merely a quirk? 'Flaws' are decided by an ever changing society.
For example, killing is against the law and is wrong.
However killing enemy soldiers during war time is not wrong, furthermore god somehow gets a free pass killing us in the great flood, as proposed by the bible.
"But we were evil and deserved to be killed!" you say.
What if I were to go all Light Yagami and kill thousands of criminals? Is that truly any different?
But perhaps I have overstepped my bounds a little. My intention was never to attack Christianity (At least not directly) and I don't wish to debate ethics at this time.

Finally, I see far less evidence for heaven and hell than I do for god, so I'm not the least bit worried about eternal damnation at this time, unless a soul goes into the centre of the earth or something.
Finally, if my theory holds any water, then I can create my own blessings and life just fine on my own, but thank him kindly for the offer if you ever get the chance.

The analogy about an organizing god is an example, I don't see him as an "organizer," but as a way to feel complete. Like how people feel when they help people.

[Deleted]

Looks like we're all done and I am quite pleased with the results.

[Metal]

not that i am trying to restart the debate, i however am a man of knowledge and the like and after a discussion about any top the first thing my brain does is go into research mode, so i began researching, as we talked about where things started and such i began researching that, and while i wont post all the scientific things behind how we are far less healthy than in noahs day due to all the extra water that had been in the atmosphere blocking all the harmful effects of uv rays, i will post the historical bits i found interesting about biblical occurences. things like, when christ died and the sky went dark, or noah and the flood, and i believe it was thaddie who said something about 120 years noah had to complete the project, i believe it was possibly longer, as methusaleh's (grandfather of noah, oldest man in recorded history at 969 years (yes i count the bible as recorded history) and where the phrase "old as methusaleh" comes from) name means "when he is dead the flood will come" if it is roughly translated. the scripture for methusaleh is found in genesis 5:25-27. now concerning the ressurection of christ, and mind you this is probably the most debated topic in existence, pontious pilate, the man who ordered the crucifixtion sent a letter to king herod, and while it is not included in the canon of the bible, it has miraculously survived throughout time until present day, wrote a letter to king herod concerning the present condition of the body of Christ, www.sacred-texts.com/bib/lbob/lbob29.htm , (the link links to excerpts from the letter, i would post pilates responses but they are far too long.) now here is a site discussing the darkness at the crucifixtion, www.geocentricity.com/ba1/no084/crucifixn.html , mind you this author points out a few of what he considers "flaws" with the preivious listed historical "evidence". i am okay with this, because as stated it was not included in the canon bible. we also see jesus appear as a prophet in other religions such as islam. i wont delve into detail on that because i do not feel as though my brain could search through the kuran to find the local of that passage, due to the nature of how the kuran is read, my understanding is that it is a very sporadic read jumping back and forth consistently. if anyone can find it, and wants to post it feel free.

also there are several "dead sea scrolls" or rather they are called that because they originate from the roman soldiers stationed near the dead sea, it is their accounts of witnessing the miraculous things that christ did while he was near that area. mind you some of them say they saw a man who "resembled the galilean." and things like that, and again these things are not part of canon scripture, but they are yet another historical account of the existence of the person known by many today as Jesus Christ, and many more still as Lord of All.

again my purpose in posting all this is not to start the arguement up again, or start a new one, as i stated someone had said that they couldnt remember the history behind it, so i have found that history they could not. and listed it here, for whomever is interested in reading and or studying it.

[thadudette]

I'm glad I read [the gist of] all that -- thanks Al, Steve, metal, and anyone else for sharing your thoughts.
I can't really add anything to it right now, however, I was reminded (therefore slight tangent XD) of something my English teacher (a Christian) quoted once: "if Christianity was all comprehensible, it would just be another philosophy." He liked to think through everything and the reasoning behind everything as well, but maybe there comes a point where we realize we don't have to make sense of everything. I know that sounds like I'm trying to use a trump card of shoving the brain on the shelf (not that I'm arguing ... just mentioning some thoughts that came into my head ), but if there really is a God who created our minds, it only makes sense to me that He'd be able to see things that we don't totally get--nothing's wrong with questions, but we just can't understand the answers to some of them. Life of Pi does an interesting job with the subject, if anyone's interested (and I don't think it's a particularly Christian-biased novel).  We can state as many facts as we want, on any side, but in the end it doesn't usually come down to proofs and reasoning.  
I'm glad you all shared your thoughts and it'll be some interesting stuff to think about more when I have a bit more time on my hands.

One thing, Steve: I get what you mean by having God to feel complete; however, the example of Israel wanting a king wasn't exactly viewed positively, so I'm not sure if that's the right analogy you'd mean to use

[Deleted]

Life of Pi was really, really dumb.

In the third part of the novel, two officials from the Japanese Ministry of Transport speak to Pi - who wound up being rescued in a small town in Mexico and was brought to a hospital to recuperate - to ascertain why the ship sank. When they do not believe his story, he tells an alternative story of human brutality, in which Pi was adrift on a lifeboat with his mother, a sailor with a broken leg, and the ship's cook, who had verbally mistreated Pi's mother before the ship sunk. The cook kills the sailor and Pi's mother to use as bait and food. Pi, in turn, kills the cook. Parallels to Pi's first story lead the Japanese officials to believe that the orang-utan represents his mother, the zebra represents the sailor, the hyena represents the cook, and Pi is Richard Parker (the tiger).

After giving all the relevant information, Pi asks which of the two stories they prefer. Since the officials cannot prove which story is true and neither is relevant to the reasons behind the shipwreck, they choose the story with the animals. Pi thanks them and says, "and so it goes with God."

I mean seriously, he says 'Like god because people are stupid idiots who only prefer the happier story.' This has happened with fictional stuff like movies and such, but real events? People want to know the truth behind those, they could have just 'asked' Pi to stop messing around with them and tell them the truth. (I probably would have preferred the darker story anyway because those are far more exciting, though that has no relevance to my beliefs which don't really have a 'tone' BECAUSE THEY'RE BELIEFS NOT STORIES. My beliefs don't tell narratives. Yet.)

There was also another part... I can't find it, but anyone who gets their atheists and agnostics should really, really not be trusted to speak intelligently on the subject. Not attacking Thaddie for using it as an example... ok maybe partly, nothing against Thaddie herself though.
Dumb, dumb book. Everything else was fine in your post as far as I'm concerned.

Still though I do wonder, if you can't answer the questions and don't want to think about it, why not be agnostic? That's pretty much how you're all acting. They can have all the same beliefs but they don't have to worry about religious ritual or defending the too often attacked Christianity.
And you don't have to have the stigma of death and your destination thereafter to worry about...
Besides, isn't feeling complete from god just a mental trick? For example I was once infatuated with someone who I KNEW wasn't real, but that didn't mean it didn't mean anything, and even now I feel complete thanks to fictional characters. Each and every last one of which I integrate into myself... just because they're not real, doesn't mean they don't mean anything. Heck they mean more to me than any religion.
The point of my belief isn't anywhere close to the idea of time travel, the quantum level or causality or whatever that's just cinnamon sprinkled on top, the centre of my beliefs is that there is literally no difference between a good narrative and a good religion, and that they all occupy the same space in the creation of the universe and aid in the self-actualization process. The only difference is in the reason for which they were created.
For example, it may be a figure of speech but don't they say that an artist's soul is contained in their work? If that's true, we inherit a little bit of it every time we experience it. Even more if its something collaborative... like just about every work of art these days.
I don't know, really, I just feel that it would make more sense to consider fiction to be occupying the same place as god, both beings formed out of the imagination to present a message. And generally, imagine you have, say, Haruhi or Madoka (Two 'anime gods' although it could literally be anyone else who inspires you, like Lelouch or something) Standing next to god and you had to pick between them. On the one hand, Haruhi and Madoka are characters who, assuming you watched the show, you actually know socially, what their goals are and such. They have personality, a life, they're human. On the other hand, god has always been abstract and erratic, one minuet dropping bread and engimaic children of his to become a miracle worker and the next flooding the earth. But why? Why does he want to be loved, why was he disatisfied with humans, how did he become god, why did he make the universe, why is it we never see him these days (What made him want to leave? Any other budding civiliations?) and... just generally why? His personality is at the core of this argment. I don't know him at all! Its like trying to marry someone you met that same day from an online dating website. And they are constantly wearing a veil so you don't know what they look like. Or sound like because they use a voice modifier and barely speak anyway.

... Where did all that text come from? Its like I can sneeze and then talk for hours and hours and hours...
At the core of my argument, I have two reasonings:
1) There is no difference between fiction and religion, so they should be treated as equals, especially since neither can provide a diffinitve answer for the creation of the universe and ourselves.
2) The morphogenetic makes more sense from a scientific standpoint.

Crap I gotta go, sorry If I'm coming across too harshly here.

[Indigo]

Even if religion and fiction were one and the same, I think you're forgetting that beliefs are something that belong on a more personal level, not as a true or false question. Religion and beliefs are paths of life that people have chosen, and that's what's right for them. To them, it doesn't really matter if questions are unanswered, it's about how they feel about their beliefs, and in turn, how their beliefs make them feel. Metalherox, Steve, Thaddy, they're are all content even though what they follow leaves many unanswered questions. It's no mental trick, it's just the way they've chosen to live out their lives. And, I don't think it's something the two of us can entirely understand, but Christianity is largely about intimate understanding and communication, so the others here would know God more, rather than as an unknown entity.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

[Deleted]

May 16, 2013 22:24:25 GMT Indigo said:

Christianity is largely about intimate understanding and communication, so the others here would know God more, rather than as an unknown entity.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Then that would make him merely a vessel for self projection, and you don't even need a fictional character to do that, it can happen with a real person or even a pencil if you try hard enough.
*Sigh* I get what you mean though, I do something similar. Even so I find something rather pointless about the notion of sticking to the belief that one god made everything- when literally anyone could be your ruler.
When you could literally make yourself your own god. I understand me better than I understand everything else, and if Christians understand god on a personal level based simply upon gut feeling and meditation, isn't that something similar anyway?

I'm not a man of science, though I do like that quote. Atheism honestly doesn't answer much more than Christianity but also if I were to call myself a man of science, it would be a huge disservice to the people who actually work hard at studying science during their lifespan.
I'm a man of emotion, just like any religious person. I'm merely self centered, perhaps a tad more curious, and I only use a rudimentary understanding of science to solidify my beliefs even further.

[Metal]

So you refuse to believe in God because you dont know him then al? It seems like you dont want to know God because you havent known him yet, if im reading your post correctly, and yet we have a book that has miraculously survived for two thousand years, with over 700 copies of the original greek and hebrew manuscipts preserved to this day, which details the mind of God, his "history" if you want to call it such, he sent Jesus for petes sake, and while yes the over arching purpose of Christ was to be a savior and sacrifice for mankind, he also gave/gives us insight into the mind of the divine being we as Christians call God, and he was presented in such a way (being a man) that we as men could understand something about God. If i recall, you have said you havent really read a bible, so perhaps you as "a man of science" need to take the scientific aproach and set aside your own biases and previous hypotheses, and do a little bit of research.

Understand im not trying to provoke you, it is merely a suggestion based on my understanding of the situation.

And my friends having said all that now i must go, as i have a store to stock.

[Deleted]

Perhaps you need to pay attention when I say 'I'm not a man of science'
I'm not provoking you I'm merely saying that I have no idea how you missed that.
I feel like your narrowing the argument too. I have many reasons for being a non-believer which I feel I've gone over so...
Since the conversation is getting really, really boring I think I'll just end it off until someone has some more insight.

[Metal]

You say you are so often i mustve missed the not. But the point still stands at its core, as for narrowing the arguement? No im merely pointing out the major hole it has. You have said in the past that you view the bible as a collection of stories, that is at most a i think it was somewhere between substandard and good, fiction. But you have also stated that youve never read it, so how then can you make that distinction? I feel as though an individual as knowledgeable as yourself can base an opinion of a book he hasnt read on heresay, now if it was a novel perhaps i couldunderstand, but a religious text, that is influential in the lives of millions of other human beings seems hardly something to leave to chance or heresay. But dogging you about this gets neither of us anywhere, and while i like discussion, and debates. Clearly Is unfruitful, i feel as though i should state that i respect your choice to be a non believer, but.
I at present do not understand why, i have read around 90% of your responses on the matter, and cannot seem to fathom it, the fact that i have missed something is very begrudging, because i hate missing things. I pride myself on not doing it, and in this situation, plainly i have. Mind you i do not want to convert you, as nothing i say can do that, i merely wish to understand you a tad better, so that as cheesy and pointless as it sounds, i can 1. Be a better example of christ in your life(i really doubt that matters to you but it does to me if thats worth anything) and 2. Better understand your mindset so that should i ever meet an individual that is like minded, i can as a pastor, be a better witness to them also.

[Deleted]

Ahh fair enough.
I spent the first... many long years of my life surrounded by christian culture. From christian songs to christian story telling to christian movies to christian bedtime stories. I admit that I haven't read the bible in full, however I don't own a bible. Perhaps that doesn't give me total authority to speak in the subject, but I will say that I know the basic outline of many christian stories.
I don't think I stopped learning about Christianity until year 9, which was what, 3-4 years ago now?
Anyway if you don't understand my beliefs by now then I fear you may never totally understand. I don't know what confuses you specifically so I kindly ask that you simply ask me what confuses you and I will answer to the best of my ability.

[Metal]

So in a nutshell you grew up in church? Its understandable then to be burnt out on something having been force fed it most of your life. I suppose my real hang up is that your a rather intelligent person. I guess i feel like you would have done more research lol. But people are different. And ive made mistakes so i cant really fault you for not having done it. Sides. Your young. The future holds dozens of possibilities. And by dozens i mean endless

[thadudette]

May 16, 2013 7:18:09 GMT @alberenza said:

Life of Pi was really, really dumb.
[everything else]

Haha that's fine. Thanks for your honesty. ^_^ Truth is I don't quite believe it's a true story either, but it got me thinking, and I appreciate that.
In response to ... something in there, Pascal's wager came to mind, which I think you've heard of being the way you are--however, I understand that PW doesn't address any specific religion, and given your reasons from before, it also has nothing to do with emotion. Whether it can be expanded or not is something that has intrigued me, though, so yeah I don't know how to end this sentence.

[Deleted]

May 18, 2013 7:23:03 GMT thadudette said:

May 16, 2013 7:18:09 GMT @alberenza said:

Life of Pi was really, really dumb.
[everything else]

Haha that's fine. Thanks for your honesty. ^_^ Truth is I don't quite believe it's a true story either, but it got me thinking, and I appreciate that.
In response to ... something in there, Pascal's wager came to mind, which I think you've heard of being the way you are--however, I understand that PW doesn't address any specific religion, and given your reasons from before, it also has nothing to do with emotion. Whether it can be expanded or not is something that has intrigued me, though, so yeah I don't know how to end this sentence.

Actually I never heard of pascals wager but I looked it up and now I feel pretty awesome. I'll probably think about it a bit but I probably wont be able to add much which isn't already there from it, thanks. Also thanks for being a good sport about my Pi comment, I felt as though I had prehaps made a slight slip up by making my tone slightly more aggressive there.

Anyway metal, I could probably count the number of times I've stepped foot in a church or anywhere else even remotely religious with one hand... but in essence, yeah I'm probably a little sick of it. I didn't grow up in a seriously strict catholic school or anything nor did I have anyone forcing their religion on me. (I may have said already that I was never baptized)Anyway I probably suffered burnout which was the reason I started, but as I said, I never totally brought it for one moment of my childhood (even though in all other aspects I was completely dumb. I'm surprised I had the mental capacity to question the authenticity of what I was being taught back then)
But at nearly 17 years old- I am incredibly excited. I already have these really unique and unorthodox beliefs, and yes I do have a veerrry long time to continue thinking over it. I can't wait to see what I come up with next.