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Post by Viroth on Jun 14, 2011 0:38:52 GMT
Vayne's pretty hard to beat with melee champions (especially ones that can't stun her).
And yea, Dogmantra, I don't really use Sion so I don't know his lines. xP
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Post by Badog Vi Britania on Jun 14, 2011 3:18:25 GMT
wow master yi as great AP ratios who knew
btw i want to try warick so bad
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Post by Viroth on Jun 14, 2011 3:26:20 GMT
Warwick*.
AP master yi? That's like... AD Janna right?
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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 14, 2011 3:28:47 GMT
AP Yi is completely viable and hilarious. Alpha Strike in then Meditate and laugh as you don't die.
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Post by Viroth on Jun 14, 2011 3:31:03 GMT
AP Yi is completely viable and hilarious. Alpha Strike in then Meditate and laugh as you don't die. |
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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 14, 2011 3:34:06 GMT
AP Yi is completely viable and hilarious. Alpha Strike in then Meditate and laugh as you don't die. you forgot the part where he's SO AWESOME it doesn't matter (yeah that's why AP Yi ain't great [and Yi in general] but it's surprising how good he is) |
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Post by dillybar64 on Jun 14, 2011 7:50:15 GMT
Yi saddens me.
He has a very balanced move pool that is ruined by some scaling off of AP and some off of attack.
I like Yi, he is one of my favorite champs, but everything he does can be done better by other champs.
Except for back dooring, but if you have a Yi on your team they are going to expect you to do that and ward their turrents. Grats, Yi is worthless now.
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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 14, 2011 14:29:18 GMT
Master Yi doesn't have a balanced move pool, that's why he's bad.
He has a closer which is a start, but it's slow and either scales really well (if you're building AP) but you don't want it to put you next to them, or it doesn't scale at all (AD) and you do want it to put you next to them (i.e. it's inefficient regardless of how you build)
Meditate is very situational. It makes AP Yi almost Kat 2.0 against CC-light teams, although it can still be wrecked by Ignite. It's kinda useless on AD Yi though, doesn't heal huge amount of health, has a very long cooldown and obviously you can't do anything while you're meditiating (AP Yi is okay with that because of his cooldowns)
Wuju Style gives him bonus AD, except the active is a tradeoff which isn't a particularly good piece of design. Also it encourages building more Attack Speed which isn't a fundamentally bad thing but it isn't good when combined with:
Highlander is another closer, to let him stick on people and push except the problem is his other damage boosters (passive and Wuju Style) scale with Attack Speed and this one scales with Attack Damage so your itemisation is all over the place.
And fiiiinally, he has no inherent reliable survivability meaning that as a squishy melee character he is flawed.
And I'm sick of all this "LET'S MAKE A BUNCH OF CHARACTERS WITH AD SCALING AND LET'S MAKE THEM CARRIES" thing because if they're going to do that a) it makes them terribly one sided (AP Yi is just as viable as AD Yi for example, and AP Tristana isn't horrible but it's not great) and b) it tends to make them overpowered.
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Post by dillybar64 on Jun 14, 2011 16:38:45 GMT
Master Yi doesn't have a balanced move pool, that's why he's bad. He has a closer which is a start, but it's slow and either scales really well (if you're building AP) but you don't want it to put you next to them, or it doesn't scale at all (AD) and you do want it to put you next to them (i.e. it's inefficient regardless of how you build) Meditate is very situational. It makes AP Yi almost Kat 2.0 against CC-light teams, although it can still be wrecked by Ignite. It's kinda useless on AD Yi though, doesn't heal huge amount of health, has a very long cooldown and obviously you can't do anything while you're meditiating (AP Yi is okay with that because of his cooldowns) Wuju Style gives him bonus AD, except the active is a tradeoff which isn't a particularly good piece of design. Also it encourages building more Attack Speed which isn't a fundamentally bad thing but it isn't good when combined with: Highlander is another closer, to let him stick on people and push except the problem is his other damage boosters (passive and Wuju Style) scale with Attack Speed and this one scales with Attack Damage so your itemisation is all over the place. And fiiiinally, he has no inherent reliable survivability meaning that as a squishy melee character he is flawed. And I'm sick of all this "LET'S MAKE A BUNCH OF CHARACTERS WITH AD SCALING AND LET'S MAKE THEM CARRIES" thing because if they're going to do that a) it makes them terribly one sided (AP Yi is just as viable as AD Yi for example, and AP Tristana isn't horrible but it's not great) and b) it tends to make them overpowered. I was saying that it was balanced conceptually. He has a heal, a minion farmer, a passive that lets him hit more, and 2 different buffs. Once the numbers muddle things up that is when he starts to suck. |
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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 14, 2011 16:45:50 GMT
But it's not balanced conceptually. Even ignoring numbers, he has numerous problems with being unsynergistic, and his itemisation is still all over the place. His abilities are individually all okay, but when you put them together they don't become more than the sum of their parts, compare to someone like Ashe who is based on kiting and avoiding getting hit, her entire skillset revolves around slows, map awareness and long range. Master Yi's skillset revolves around... nothing in particular?
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Post by dillybar64 on Jun 14, 2011 16:47:53 GMT
But it's not balanced conceptually. Even ignoring numbers, he has numerous problems with being unsynergistic, and his itemisation is still all over the place. His abilities are individually all okay, but when you put them together they don't become more than the sum of their parts, compare to someone like Ashe who is based on kiting and avoiding getting hit, her entire skillset revolves around slows, map awareness and long range. Master Yi's skillset revolves around... nothing in particular? Beating the s*** out of people whether that means lifesteal or armor pen & crit. chance. What confuses you?  He has a move that brings him towards the target (if you use it right) He has excellent chase He has buffs out the nose. He just can do anything because things scale in no consistent way. |
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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 14, 2011 17:05:57 GMT
Nothing confuses me, Master Yi's skillset is Just Plain Unsynergistic.
Why does he have a heal that leaves him vulnerable?
YES his closer is absolute, but it's also very slow, meaning that with a flash and quick wits (or similar) closing can turn from a very good idea into a terrible idea except you can't do a thing about it once you've clicked, and he has no escapes BUT he also has no reliable survivability, so oftentimes you really DON'T want to be using his closer.
Wuju Style and his passive have synergy with building lots of attack speed whereas his ultimate has synergy with building AD.
By "defined role" I don't mean "carry" which is what you basically described, I mean "very sticky bruiser" or "kitey map awarenessy pokey pokey carry", Yi tries to be a sticky carry, but he isn't because he has no CC (which people need to be sticky), bad closing compared to say, Xin Zhao, not great and/or unreliable burst (which is what sticky characters tend to need because you want to force someone onto the defensive) and at the end of the day, sticky squishy guy doesn't work.
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Post by dillybar64 on Jun 14, 2011 17:33:34 GMT
Nothing confuses me, Master Yi's skillset is Just Plain Unsynergistic. Why does he have a heal that leaves him vulnerable? YES his closer is absolute, but it's also very slow, meaning that with a flash and quick wits (or similar) closing can turn from a very good idea into a terrible idea except you can't do a thing about it once you've clicked, and he has no escapes BUT he also has no reliable survivability, so oftentimes you really DON'T want to be using his closer. Wuju Style and his passive have synergy with building lots of attack speed whereas his ultimate has synergy with building AD. Yes, we have both already brought up the lack of scaling consistency. By "defined role" I don't mean "carry" which is what you basically described, I mean "very sticky bruiser" or "kitey map awarenessy pokey pokey carry", Yi tries to be a sticky carry, but he isn't because he has no CC (which people need to be sticky), bad closing compared to say, Xin Zhao, not great and/or unreliable burst (which is what sticky characters tend to need because you want to force someone onto the defensive) and at the end of the day, sticky squishy guy doesn't work. Again, like I said, everything he does is done better by other champs. |
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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 14, 2011 19:43:12 GMT
Yes, we have both already brought up the lack of scaling consistency. No he has amazing scaling but it's just all over the place. With the most items he's arguably the second or third hardest AD carry in the game (hard not as in difficulty) |
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Post by dillybar64 on Jun 14, 2011 22:35:55 GMT
Yes, we have both already brought up the lack of scaling consistency. No he has amazing scaling but it's just all over the place. Exactly, that is what is not consistent about it. |
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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 15, 2011 0:30:32 GMT
But that's not what makes him bad at all.
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Post by dillybar64 on Jun 15, 2011 3:34:31 GMT
But that's not what makes him bad at all. But it contributes. It means that half of his skills are under par late game unless you create an incredibly wonky item build |
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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 15, 2011 3:39:18 GMT
It doesn't contribute as much as you think. Meditate is just a poorly designed skill and is as weirdly useless regardless of how much AP you have, and Alpha Strike has natural utility with the closer (even if it's not a very good one).
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Post by dillybar64 on Jun 15, 2011 4:08:18 GMT
It doesn't contribute as much as you think. Meditate is just a poorly designed skill and is as weirdly useless regardless of how much AP you have, and Alpha Strike has natural utility with the closer (even if it's not a very good one). Meditate could be better, but useless? Naw, it gives magic resist regardless of if you sit around for the full duration or pop in on for a quick buff as you are running and if you have enough AP I have been able to heal for more damage than Katarina could deal. She would be wailing on me and my health would still go up. |
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Post by Badog Vi Britania on Jun 15, 2011 7:43:18 GMT
bought poppy i like her but i have the horrible habit of using her abilities at wrong moments that seem right like charging into an opponent which conviently is next to his turret after the charge :l or i used her ult on shen who teleported just as i got to him  killstealing on accident etc what kind of build should i use for her? |
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