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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 12, 2011 0:24:41 GMT
go near the carry > get instantly killed
stay away from the carry > be useless
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Post by Viroth on Jun 12, 2011 0:29:17 GMT
Wait for Amumu to bandage+flash into enemy team + ult.
Knock up carry, scream in its face, eat it.
Job = Done
Edit: By your reasoning, Kennen is also bad.
Seeing that "Tag you're it!" lightning rush is MELEE range, one of his abilities are auto attack reliant, and his ult also turns him into a giant target that says: "SHOOT ME".
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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 12, 2011 0:35:44 GMT
just because Amumu is a good champion doesn't mean Cho is
and Kennen is bad (unless you flash > ult > hourglass which is how you're supposed to do it)
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Post by Viroth on Jun 12, 2011 0:57:06 GMT
Then as you state it yourself, probably Yorrick will be bad, and so will Skarner, and so are most other close range damage dealers. By that logic, very many champions are bad! In fact, only a select few are even worthy of being used! For shame that they should try and make variety.
And perhaps yes, there are champions innately worse than others, but it all really depends on how they're used. Also some more so than others are extremely more team composition dependent.
But just because they aren't viable, doesn't mean they're "bad". Also, Cho'Gath isn't all that "close ranged", he still has his Q which is around Lay Waste range.
People still play Cassiopeia and Brand when we could all just play "click and kill" with Annie.
Yea, perhaps a Cho'Gath won't bring so much to his team as, say, Jarvan or Xin will, but that doesn't mean they're completely useless.
Also, if a carry can knock down a 2780 HP Cho (no items included, just 6 stack feast) in an instant, you've probably lost already.
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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 12, 2011 1:14:33 GMT
You're misunderstanding.
Useless Cho'Gath = tank Cho'Gath
Tanky AP Cho'Gath = hard to play without dying instantly (not necessarily bad, though Cho ain't that great)
now I will go ahead and refute a few of your points
Yes the game depends upon player skill and farm and teamwork etc way more than it does which champion. I'll be the first to say that. However, that doesn't mean you can't objectively say "this is hard to do" or "this is bad"
Nonviable by definition is worse than bad. Nonviable is Fiddlesticks, bad is Kennen.
Cho has long range on Rupture but doesn't have long range on anything else, meaning his effective range is low unless he wants to compromise his contribution, thus leading to the question "why stay away and only use Rupture when you could build tankier, have similar damage because you're using everything and more utility?" but then you're not using Cho's absurd AP Ratios etc etc.
Of course people play non-dumb champions. If it was All Dumb All Mid this game would be even worse.
Cho'Gath isn't anything like Jarvan or Xin. A better comparison would be Swaim, who is a tanky caster with short range but has much better inherent survivability.
Aaaaand finally if a carry can knock down a 2780 hp Cho'Gath in an instant it doesn't mean you've lost it means your opponents are competent (assuming of course that Cho'Gath has only tanky AP items and not any super high defensive stats) it just means they know how to farm.
I explained Cho'Gaths weaknesses and now you're talking like I don't think he should ever be played because of them. While he's on my dumb characters list that's because of his absurd laning, not because he's not great.
Lee Sin isn't very good. Kennen is bad. Ezreal isn't very good.
Guess who my top three guys are.
The long and short of it all is that against a competent team if you're squishy and short ranged you will need to build very tanky, but Cho'Gath's base damage isn't good enough to only build straight tank, so he has to build reasonably squishy to avoid being ignorable, but then he dies easily.
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Post by Viroth on Jun 12, 2011 5:14:17 GMT
Meh, talking about Cho'Gath is boring, mostly because I don't use him much nor see him much enough to argue and or discuss in his favor. I'll agree with you on that Cho'Gath is, I suppose, bad at higher level play. Perhaps it's because I stopped using him, but I never had any problems with him at all.
Not to mention you've probably played quite a bit more games where the enemy team is quite more competent than the ones I've seen. The reason I brought up Jarvan and Xin was not to compare them to Cho'Gath, but to compare their utility to his. Jarvan's ult can make or break a team fight. Cho'Gath's just does damage (Which is alright since it's true damage, but other "tanks" or tankier characters can usually change the tides of the battle much more consistently than a true damage nuke.). Xin can knock down important champions in an instant. Cho'Gath... waddles in and tries to be sneaky while being half-the-screen-sized.
That said, I have been noticing that I've seen a lot less Cho'Gath players as I hit 30, and those that I do see usually just end up feeding really.
On the "2.7k HP Cho", that's without any HP items whatsoever, and his armor is 82 at 18 with no items whatsoever, which isn't much but still. With items, that's quite a bit of damage reduction, and quite a large amount of HP that shouldn't be instantly burned off by anyone. What I meant by "if the carry does that, you've more or less lost" is that if the carry can destroy a Cho'Gath with those stats (that's no items at all, we're talking... way more armor and a bit more HP with say, Warmog's and a guardian angel for example, perhaps frozen heart. Either of those and then his tanky AP (abyssal scepter for example)), that to me is a super-fed carry.
Also, considering my laning phase usually consists of: "Find the champion that most needs to get his CS as high as possible, and deny him his minions.", I don't really encounter carries with lots of farm. Typically because I use super-poke champions (Cassiopeia for example) that more or less get you to waste flash at level 3 or something, I tend to force people out of the lane a lot, and I like to switch lanes if they do to try and get their farm on.
That or the enemy carry gets stupidly-fed by my teamies who refuse to let me switch to their lane.
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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 12, 2011 8:39:30 GMT
(that's no items at all, we're talking... way more armor and a bit more HP with say, Warmog's and a guardian angel for example, perhaps frozen heart. Either of those and then his tanky AP (abyssal scepter for example)), that to me is a super-fed carry. And that to me is what I term a "useless Cho'Gath"  RoA/Deathcap all the way. |
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Post by Badog Vi Britania on Jun 12, 2011 8:49:20 GMT
stop the fighting cant you see it tearing us ap*shot for overused quote*
well anyway
got Sion and i have to say he's neat and also
WHO IS YA SUMMONOR AND WHAT DOES HE DOOO
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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 12, 2011 8:51:11 GMT
Phun Phact about Sion (and also Annie and Taric). I hate his voice so so much. I can only play him (and also Annie and Taric) because when I picked him up, my sound didn't work in game so that I didn't have to listen to his (and Annie and Taric's) lame-o voice all the time.
STOP BEING A BONEHEAD.
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Post by Badog Vi Britania on Jun 12, 2011 14:54:32 GMT
GET TO DA CHOPPA played gangplank and omg i like him  thank goodness for free trying i saved several of my teamates with the ult and and rally saved a life and and hes downright cool |
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Post by dillybar64 on Jun 13, 2011 2:00:33 GMT
GET TO DA CHOPPA played gangplank and omg i like him Yay Plank! He does not get enough love. Also, choppa comment = you tried Mundo too? |
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Post by Viroth on Jun 13, 2011 5:38:07 GMT
I'm pretty sure what he means is Sion's quote: "GET TO MY CHOPPER!" (In other words, let me cut you with my axe.)
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Post by dillybar64 on Jun 13, 2011 6:01:20 GMT
^Right, what did I say?
(rereads previous post)
Woah, sorry about that.
Slip of the fingers.
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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 13, 2011 13:51:03 GMT
I'm pretty sure what he means is Sion's quote: "GET TO MY CHOPPER!" (In other words, let me cut you with my axe.) I think it's "GET ON MY CHOPPER!" Chopper is the actual name of his axe too. How original. |
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Post by Badog Vi Britania on Jun 13, 2011 15:03:36 GMT
tryndamere
pros
high critical hit
does alot of damage end game
high survivialbility
cons
very little range
often squishy melee
not so helpful in teamfights
champions strong against
squishies
anything in 1v1
champions weak against
anything that can stun/slow/snare/or poison
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Post by dillybar64 on Jun 13, 2011 15:22:15 GMT
champions weak against anything that can stun/slow/snare/or poison That... is kind of a big weakness.  |
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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 13, 2011 15:27:07 GMT
champions weak against anything that can stun/slow/snare/or poison That... is kind of a big weakness. And this is why, despite having one of the most ridiculous survivability abilities in the game, Tryndamere is still bad (except in 3v3 oh god... oh god 3v3 Trynd) |
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Post by Badog Vi Britania on Jun 13, 2011 15:40:22 GMT
well 1 stun while in a team fight and your dead
no matter what :l
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Post by Dogmantra on Jun 13, 2011 16:03:38 GMT
well 1 stun while in a team fight and your dead no matter what :l Buncha Trynds I've seen run Cleanse for just that reason. I might get a Quicksilver Sash instead though for Exhaust and Ignite removal. |
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Post by Badog Vi Britania on Jun 13, 2011 20:34:12 GMT
you know whats not fun?
fighting vayne as trynd
especially having NO CLUE on how to fight her
then getting blamed for feeding after asking for help several times and NOBODY COMES
GAHHHHHHHHHHH
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