|
|
Post by Dogmantra on Mar 13, 2011 5:36:35 GMT
I've not been in any situation where Shadow Girl's admittedly bad air-dash has been a game-breaking flaw, Because airdashing is already the game being broken. Just in the opposite direction. For someone used to airdashing (i.e. moving quickly), borgs that can't are unplayably bad. And if you're not used to airdashing you either play almost exclusively non-kiters (which have a tendency to suck) or winged borgs (which have a tendency to be overpriced). |
|
|
|
Post by Death Eye on Mar 13, 2011 5:53:12 GMT
I've not been in any situation where Shadow Girl's admittedly bad air-dash has been a game-breaking flaw, Because airdashing is already the game being broken. Just in the opposite direction. For someone used to airdashing (i.e. moving quickly), borgs that can't are unplayably bad. And if you're not used to airdashing you either play almost exclusively non-kiters (which have a tendency to suck) or winged borgs (which have a tendency to be overpriced). I think I should respond to that. But I'm not sure how to respond to that, mostly because I'm not entirely sure what a non-kiter is.  I don't think I use them almost exclusively, though. And I know I don't exclusively, or even primarily, use winged borgs... |
|
|
|
Post by Dogmantra on Mar 13, 2011 6:26:07 GMT
I'm not entirely sure what a non-kiter is. A kiter would be someone like... nearly all the borgs in the game. Cyber Ninja, Gold Hero, anyone where the best tactic is airdash forever and spam stuff. Non-kiters are the borgs that I think suck, like tanks and dragons and fortresses, things designed to take the hits rather than dodge them. Shadow Girl fails to be an effective non-kiter because she can't airdash but she also can't take a hit with her ridiculously tiny health bar. |
|
|
|
Post by Death Eye on Mar 13, 2011 6:52:51 GMT
I'm not entirely sure what a non-kiter is. A kiter would be someone like... nearly all the borgs in the game. Cyber Ninja, Gold Hero, anyone where the best tactic is airdash forever and spam stuff. Non-kiters are the borgs that I think suck, like tanks and dragons and fortresses, things designed to take the hits rather than dodge them. Shadow Girl fails to be an effective non-kiter because she can't airdash but she also can't take a hit with her ridiculously tiny health bar. Oh. Thanks for clearing that up. So, basically, Shadow Girl's problem is that she can't dodge very easily due to her downward air-dash, and she can't take many hits because she has 100 HP. Kind of like a Death Borg, but with a worse air-dash. Still, the air-dash does provide enough speed to dodge attacks. The only issue is getting across the battlefield. Without the ability to air-dash infinitely, she has to land eventually, and that slows down the process of going across the long distances and can leave her vulnerable. But even that is usually survivable, in my experience, unless the opponent is an Ultimate Cannon. So, after you get used to it and learn how to deal with it, it can be dealt with. But I must admit, it is difficult. EDIT: FINALLY the video is uploaded! www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx98siI0BVcANOTHER EDIT FOR THE SAKE OF AVOIDING A DOUBLE-POST: 229 experience! I'm slightly over half-way there! ;D EDIT: I AM A F***ING MORON!  ONE-QUARTER OF THE WAY THERE, NOT ONE-HALF! |
|
|
|
Post by Frozazen on Mar 14, 2011 17:55:59 GMT
i'm surprised you didn't try to do the Normal Ninja Combo with her doggy.
i really like her because of the fact that you are forced to combo with her. i enjoy combo-ing, therefore i like to use shadow girl. with all of the better borgs gotcha force has become too easy for me, so that's why i tend to not use them as much, but some childhood favorites that aren't super broken are Normal Ninja, and Shadow Girl. they both require skill to use live, and they're both fun, too. if i get the chance i try to close range, but of course my normal ninja uses the shuriken and bombs for the bigger borgs. shadow girl, you don't have the long ranged moves, so i like to see how well i can do against the stronger guys (with the shadow slash mostly), and combo occasionally.
|
|
|
|
Post by dillybar64 on Mar 15, 2011 15:50:10 GMT
Excellent, thanks for the vid Death Eye. Can you post some more for us? Please and thanks.  I'm not entirely sure what a non-kiter is. A kiter would be someone like... nearly all the borgs in the game. Cyber Ninja, Gold Hero, anyone where the best tactic is airdash forever and spam stuff. Non-kiters are the borgs that I think suck, like tanks and dragons and fortresses, things designed to take the hits rather than dodge them. Shadow Girl fails to be an effective non-kiter because she can't airdash but she also can't take a hit with her ridiculously tiny health bar. You are quite silly. Tanks are deceptively good at dashing. Maybe it is just because the meta at my house has evolved to mean dodging is everything, so I got great at dodging with everything. i'm surprised you didn't try to do the Normal Ninja Combo with her doggy. i really like her because of the fact that you are forced to combo with her. i enjoy combo-ing, therefore i like to use shadow girl. with all of the better borgs gotcha force has become too easy for me, so that's why i tend to not use them as much, but some childhood favorites that aren't super broken are Normal Ninja, and Shadow Girl. they both require skill to use live, and they're both fun, too. if i get the chance i try to close range, but of course my normal ninja uses the shuriken and bombs for the bigger borgs. shadow girl, you don't have the long ranged moves, so i like to see how well i can do against the stronger guys (with the shadow slash mostly), and combo occasionally. Um... that isn't comboing. A combo is where you link three or more moves together. So with Sonic Samurai if you used your X slash to make them stagger while you closed in, used you standard attack 3 times (on the fourth time it knocks them away) and then X button dash through them. Or using Sapphire Knight to bounce people off of walls so they land next to him and are ready for a face smashing. What I am seeing is him trying to kite with Shadow Girl and then attack them with standard attacks (which knock them away). Also, pretty much any borg can combo and the game is easy enough to be able to beat it with anyone in pretty much any way so you really don't have to spam... like ever. People who use Samurai Shogun to spam his giant laser slash are kind of sad in my opinion. |
|
|
|
Post by Dogmantra on Mar 15, 2011 18:00:56 GMT
You are quite silly. Tanks are deceptively good at dashing. Pretty sure a lot of their damage comes from moves where they have to stay still. Also dashing along the ground is still terrible. |
|
|
|
Post by dillybar64 on Mar 15, 2011 20:40:14 GMT
You are quite silly. Tanks are deceptively good at dashing. Pretty sure a lot of their damage comes from moves where they have to stay still. Also dashing along the ground is still terrible. Everyone is vulnerable at some point. Titan tank needs a brief moment to stop moving and shoot his javelin things. Gatling Tank doesn't. However, like with most things in that game, it is all about timing. Dashing along the ground is not terrible, it is inferior to air dashing, but it is not bad. Just look at Panther Vehicle. |
|
|
|
Post by Death Eye on Mar 15, 2011 20:44:32 GMT
Dashing along the ground is not terrible, it is inferior to air dashing, but it is not bad. That's not even true all of the time. If I'm not mistaken, the fastest way for Panther Vehicle to move is by dashing forward on the ground. And the Metal Hero has quite a dash on the ground, as I recall. |
|
|
|
Post by dillybar64 on Mar 15, 2011 20:46:16 GMT
Dashing along the ground is not terrible, it is inferior to air dashing, but it is not bad. That's not even true all of the time. If I'm not mistaken, the fastest way for Panther Vehicle to move is by dashing forward on the ground. And the Metal Hero has quite a dash on the ground, as I recall. Case closed. It is good on a borg to borg basis. Borgs with booster jumps don't have exactly "optimal" good air dashing. |
|
|
|
Post by Viroth on Mar 15, 2011 20:59:01 GMT
This video... has made me realize... that shadow girl... is WORSE than I thought.
Maybe it's the fact that I use slow borgs or fortresses... but from what -I- see... even how death eye uses her... she seems like a big target with the stamina of wet napkins flailing about. Trying to land attacks... seems like a waste of time.
At first, I thought she was horrible. Now, I don't see why she was ever made.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dogmantra on Mar 15, 2011 21:08:10 GMT
That's not even true all of the time. If I'm not mistaken, the fastest way for Panther Vehicle to move is by dashing forward on the ground. And the Metal Hero has quite a dash on the ground, as I recall. Case closed. It is good on a borg to borg basis. Borgs with booster jumps don't have exactly "optimal" good air dashing. I think you guys misunderstand why Airdashing is good. It's not JUST the speed, it's the fact you're in the air. Gattling has a harder time hitting airborne borgs, and you have to score a direct hit with AoE attacks rather than just hit nearby and splash off for the damage/knockback. Grounddashing is NEVER better than Airdashing, solely for those reasons. It's also why beams are Just Better than anything else. |
|
|
|
Post by Death Eye on Mar 15, 2011 22:39:40 GMT
This video... has made me realize... that shadow girl... is WORSE than I thought.
Maybe it's the fact that I use slow borgs or fortresses... but from what -I- see... even how death eye uses her... she seems like a big target with the stamina of wet napkins flailing about. Trying to land attacks... seems like a waste of time.
At first, I thought she was horrible. Now, I don't see why she was ever made. I never claimed to be good with her. In fact, I'm pretty sure I suck with her, based on the fact that I didn't even beat Kakeru. Also, big target? I'm pretty sure she's actually relatively small, though I do have to agree with the stamina of wet napkins bit. And i still haven't gotten her to level 10 yet. There is a chance that there is a great bonus for reaching level 10. Why else would she take 900 experience to reach it? Yay!Case closed. It is good on a borg to borg basis. Borgs with booster jumps don't have exactly "optimal" good air dashing. I think you guys misunderstand why Airdashing is good. It's not JUST the speed, it's the fact you're in the air. Gattling has a harder time hitting airborne borgs, and you have to score a direct hit with AoE attacks rather than just hit nearby and splash off for the damage/knockback. Grounddashing is NEVER better than Airdashing, solely for those reasons. It's also why beams are Just Better than anything else. Yes, in those situations, air-dashing is better, I will admit. I'm not saying ground-dashing is better overall. I'm saying that ground-dashing can be good sometimes. Like if you're up against a borg that isn't Garuda, Gatling Gunner, etc. with Gatling guns and explosives and you're using Metal Hero. Or if you're trying to escape an ICBM blast with Panther Vehicle. It's not perfect, it usually isn't even good, but it can be extremely useful sometimes. Also, Kung Fu Master. He can use it to dodge a short-range attack and counter with an uppercut. |
|
|
|
Post by dillybar64 on Mar 15, 2011 23:11:02 GMT
This video... has made me realize... that shadow girl... is WORSE than I thought.
Maybe it's the fact that I use slow borgs or fortresses... but from what -I- see... even how death eye uses her... she seems like a big target with the stamina of wet napkins flailing about. Trying to land attacks... seems like a waste of time.
At first, I thought she was horrible. Now, I don't see why she was ever made. I never claimed to be good with her. In fact, I'm pretty sure I suck with her, based on the fact that I didn't even beat Kakeru. Also, big target? I'm pretty sure she's actually relatively small, though I do have to agree with the stamina of wet napkins bit. And i still haven't gotten her to level 10 yet. There is a chance that there is a great bonus for reaching level 10. Why else would she take 900 experience to reach it? I think you guys misunderstand why Airdashing is good. It's not JUST the speed, it's the fact you're in the air. Gattling has a harder time hitting airborne borgs, and you have to score a direct hit with AoE attacks rather than just hit nearby and splash off for the damage/knockback. Grounddashing is NEVER better than Airdashing, solely for those reasons. It's also why beams are Just Better than anything else. Yes, in those situations, air-dashing is better, I will admit. I'm not saying ground-dashing is better overall. I'm saying that ground-dashing can be good sometimes. Like if you're up against a borg that isn't Garuda, Gatling Gunner, etc. with Gatling guns and explosives and you're using Metal Hero. Or if you're trying to escape an ICBM blast with Panther Vehicle. It's not perfect, it usually isn't even good, but it can be extremely useful sometimes. Also, Kung Fu Master. He can use it to dodge a short-range attack and counter with an uppercut.[/quote] Exactly. And if a borg can't air dash, falling back on ground dashing isn't the worst thing in the world. |
|
|
|
Post by Dogmantra on Mar 15, 2011 23:19:08 GMT
You realise those were just some examples and not the only things that make airdashing Just Better, right? It screws over nearly every facet of targeting.
|
|
|
|
Post by dillybar64 on Mar 15, 2011 23:24:45 GMT
You realise those were just some examples and not the only things that make airdashing Just Better, right? It screws over nearly every facet of targeting. Really? I have never had much of a problem with it. I mean, with borgs like the Normal Ninja that aren't gunners I have a problem even if the other dude is on the ground. But for gunners and tanks (of which I use a fair amount) I have never had a problem. Especially since projectiles will turn and tilt towards their target in mid air. |
|
|
|
Post by Death Eye on Mar 15, 2011 23:30:34 GMT
You realise those were just some examples and not the only things that make airdashing Just Better, right? It screws over nearly every facet of targeting.  I'm a bit confused here. I didn't try to refute your argument that air-dashing is better against Gatling Gunners and anything with an explosive attack. It is. I was saying that against other borgs, when using certain borgs, a ground-dash is not as bad as your generalization that air-dashing is Just Better implies that it is. Plus, with the Kung Fu Master a dash to the side on the ground can help immensely in dodging short-range attacks. Also, against the Ultimate Cannon. A ground-dash to the side can save your life. |
|
|
|
Post by Viroth on Mar 15, 2011 23:49:21 GMT
What I mean is, I thought she had different attacks and such... but from what I see, her combos and all are a bit different from what I thought.
As to "Big target", a small bird is tiny target for an old musket. Now, a to a SAM turret, a little bird is a giant "shoot me" sign. She may be hard to hit theoretically due to her small size, but what I mean is that she seems slow at times, and her dodges aren't very "dodgy". I don't mean it in size, "Big Target" that is... but in how easy she is to hit.
I mean, you could have some difficulty hitting her with... I don't know... Kung Fu master? Or a borg that's relatively melee style or inaccurate? Perhaps I should've been more specific, really... but in my eyes, "Big Target" is anything that can't effectively dodge a Fortresse's shots. And from what I've experienced in using my Fortress borgs for a long time... is that there are not that many things which aren't a "big target" in my perspective.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dogmantra on Mar 15, 2011 23:59:20 GMT
I was saying that against other borgs, when using certain borgs, a ground-dash is not as bad as your generalization that air-dashing is Just Better implies that it is. But it's... not better. Ever. Sure you might be able to move faster with like two already sucky borgs but up in the sky you have SO MANY advantages. Ground-dashing isn't bad and I'm not saying it is. I'm saying it's purely suboptimal because airdashing is always Just Better. |
|
|
|
Post by Death Eye on Mar 16, 2011 0:18:51 GMT
I was saying that against other borgs, when using certain borgs, a ground-dash is not as bad as your generalization that air-dashing is Just Better implies that it is. But it's... not better. Ever. Sure you might be able to move faster with like two already sucky borgs but up in the sky you have SO MANY advantages. Ground-dashing isn't bad and I'm not saying it is. I'm saying it's purely suboptimal because airdashing is always Just Better. I believe you've misunderstood me. I never said it was better than air-dashing, only that it's not always bad. But you just said that, so I need not say any more on that subject. On the subject of ground-dashing being suboptimal, in my personal experience, if you plan to melee anything with Metal Hero you're better off on the ground. Metal Hero's air melee attacks are awful. But dash right next to the enemy and mash the attack button and you can do quite a bit of damage. In that case, a ground-dash could actually be better than an air-dash. Sure, you should probably air-dash to get close to the target, but getting into a ground combo after an air-dash with Metal Hero is a very difficult thing to do effectively, it seems. But maybe I just suck. Also, Beam Samurai. His ground combo after his X attack can annihilate borgs, but his air attack is mediocre. Of course, you can't do his ground combo after a dash, so that's basically irrelevant. |
|
ONE-QUARTER OF THE WAY THERE, NOT ONE-HALF!
I made a thing... Long live Gotcha Force!!!
