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Post by Metal on May 20, 2013 20:24:51 GMT
^Zelda's Nayru Love special reflects projectiles, as does Mario's Cape, and Pit's Mirror Shield. Get your facts straight. As for the Mewtwo idea, it sounds pretty good. Also I believe I am unable to feel nostalgia. I said that doesnt suck XD. pit is decent, but i only use zelda to play as shiek. |
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Post by Stove on May 20, 2013 21:39:59 GMT
^That's a matter of opinion, just like with me saying Mewtwo is lame.
Mewtwo had severe angling issues with his up special, much like Zelda does. His Shadow Ball attack is good, but Lucario's does about the same damage when he's at 0%. when Lucario's aura is higher up, his Aura Sphere is far superior. Lucario has a "dodge counter", and nice wide range on many attacks. They play similarly, truthfully, but Lucario plays riskily and defensively.
Zelda I agree, is absolute garbage. She's like Captain falcon without the speed, multiple recoveries, and awesomeness, but with a crap projectile added.
Mario, on the other hand, I disagree with. He's a balanced, versatile fighter with a solid projectile, strong meteor smash, decent air attacks, and solid specials.
Pit is certainly a good character. So my argument still stands.
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Post by Metal on May 21, 2013 2:23:43 GMT
I feel like mewtwo requires those deficiencies to avoid being op.
Ill admit at close range mario is good, but i dislike mario, so i dont use him. Or luigi, or wario, as i generally dislike all three of them.
I like that lucario doesnt slide when he stops moving, that was always a hassle with mewtwo. He could literally walk off the edge, cause of the slide effect.
I also wish that theyd add more mid to long range chars, i feel like itd give players something to do, like rather than rush in, or rather charge up projectile then rush in, depending on who your using, and proceed to try and waller your opponent to death. Which i feel like is 65% of online gameplay in anything above a 1v1 match.
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Post by Stove on May 21, 2013 3:27:54 GMT
I feel like mewtwo requires those deficiencies to avoid being op. Ill admit at close range mario is good, but i dislike mario, so i dont use him. Or luigi, or wario, as i generally dislike all three of them. I like that lucario doesnt slide when he stops moving, that was always a hassle with mewtwo. He could literally walk off the edge, cause of the slide effect. I also wish that theyd add more mid to long range chars, i feel like itd give players something to do, like rather than rush in, or rather charge up projectile then rush in, depending on who your using, and proceed to try and waller your opponent to death. Which i feel like is 65% of online gameplay in anything above a 1v1 match. See, the difference is that I use Mewtwo and I like Mewtwo. He just sucks. As for longer ranged characters... Link, Toon Link, Samus, Lucas, Ness, Olimar, Dedede, Falco, Pit, etc. 1/5 of the roster isn't enough for you? There are other things a character should be proficient at too, like air games, ground games, dodging, recovery...about 25% of the roster being mid/long range characters is good. (If you need explanations of any of those characters I will gladly explain.) Also, online gameplay is like that because of lag and stupidity of most random people online. |
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Post by Stove on Feb 5, 2014 23:40:18 GMT
Trying to figure out who I want to main is like pulling teeth. It's incredibly painful and annoying.
See, I like Dedede and Bowser, both super-heavyweights, but Bowser is subpar and is such a huge target, and I just fail at predicting with Dedede. Also D3's best attack is his B-Air.
I like the Mario bros, but Luigi's KO moves are just so wonky to land and I can't get used to his traction. Mario's the closest to the "ideal" character for me I've found, but I'm just not sure.
I like Pit and I'm decent with pit, but once again problems with prediction. I don't know his moveset as well as I should.
I like Ike but I find myself abusing his only fast+strong attack, his B-Air. I don't really like how most characters' best attack is their back air, since they're just weird to land oftentimes.
I like Olimar but I can't quite get the concept of the pikmin differences down, and it's just odd to have to plan my attacks.
Okay, I want to do a strong KO throw. Gotta make sure I use a purple or blue for that. I want to do a strong air attack so I need to use my reds. I want to do a lot of damage with pummels so I need to use my white pikmin, etc...though I do enjoy him.
Toon Link is fun, but I swear I always screw things up and suicide with his D-air trying to meteor smash AT LEAST once per match. Also I use his sucky grab too much.
Zero Suit Samus is cool, but I just don't feel right since I can just down-smash into pretty much anything I want for free hits.
Meta Knight is cool, but...he's just too OP. I don't really like using the best character in the game.
Game&Watch is another cool one with a lot of interesting options. I really don't have any negatives for him.
So these are all the characters I've considered and I'm basically down to Dedede, Mario, G&W and Olimar.
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Post by Indigo on Feb 6, 2014 1:38:51 GMT
Dedede: Big attacks and damage, harder to KO and he can recover from anything that doesn't KO him despite being super heavy. His B-Air is one of his best killing moves, but most of his air attacks are really good. You don't have to be good at predicting, just use his range to keep people at bay, and side-B a lot when they're away to give them less room. His inhale move has priority of epic proportions. You need to be more offensive with him rather than predict.
Bowser: Still disagree. He's good. Forward tilt and down tilt come out near instantly, the former having big range and power/knockback, even KOing at higher percents, and the latter has less range but is just as fast and has surprising knockback. Fire breath is very good as it's virtually unbeatable and has nice range. Fsmash is crazy strong and fast for what it is. It's risky, but he can punish chasing off-stage with side-B. Up-B on the ground is pretty strong and allows him to slide in or out while attacking. Down-B is hard to hit with but even stronger than his Fsmash. In the air, F-air is fast and decently wide. B-Air is a bit laggy but has a huge hitbox. N-Air is good, his ground A also works miracles like most characters' jab combos. A lot of his attacks are fast and powerful despite his weight.
Luigi/Mario: Solid choices. Mario's the mary sue fighter, enough said. Good at anything and has a good spike. The cape and FLUDD can completely screw over people off stage by messing with their recoveries. Luigi's more of a drunken master. but basically still all-round. Of course, his 'perfect' Up-B is very risky but it's also like a fully charged smash attack done in one frame. He's more mobile and less predictable than Mario, but a little wonky.
Pit: Can't imagine him in a melee. Anyway, I use him a lot so you can surmise all of what I would say. He's got everything except killing power, he has to rely mostly on a first-frame hit B-Air or a glide attack because his knockback as a whole is laughable. He's also very close-ranged, despite his arrows. They're good, but only a tool for justicebeing annoying or a little extra damage.
Ike: Don't underestimate his slow attacks. B-Air is fast but its not that great. F-Tilt is strong with good range, though slow startup. His jab combo is a miracle worker. Up-tilt has epic priority. His air attacks are very good in general, but have lolz ground recovery. Don't underestimate his delayed counter, abuse uncharged side-B and its fastness and range. Aether is basically spawning a hitbox way over his head and a mini-combo. Neutral B timed right can shut down virtually any approach. Well, he's best on the ground, with jabs and his excellent ground tilts. If your opponent is in the air, I suggest F-Air, and N-Air and Up-Air have nice lingering hitboxes. Fsmash is a given, it's slow but insanely powerful, and Up-Smash has good all-round range.
Olimar: You know more about him than me... On the other hand, make use of the fact that your opponent won't be as aware as your plans/pikmin as you. Olimar's grab range and grab attacks can be incredible, and his Down-smash owns the ground around him. Thrown purple/white pikmin are very useful... Olimar is a scary fighter honestly, the only thing bad about him is his recovery can be easily gimped. But at the same time, if you get the timing right against an edgehog, it'll spike them down with you. He can rack up damage and KO very easy with the right pikmin, and he's very hard to punish.
Toon Link: Smaller, floatier Link. You know how I do with normal Link... Abuse his items to dominate the field. His grab isn't bad, I use Link's grab sometimes. It's a long range grab... You can combo off of it if you time it to grab and throw them as your boomerang returns, or towards an airborne bomb, but it's mostly situational use. Yet the grappling hook in the air is one of the nicest air attacks in the game (range and safe to throw out, and can used while approaching). Down-air is as predictable as it is good... Honestly, don't try to spike unless your opponent has no choice but to recover without being able to dodge or delay their recovery.
ZSS: Her stun is a good gimmick. She lacks killing power and recovery, but she's got nice range and agility. The stun just makes up for her overall weakness, and it's easy to avoid, anyway.
Meta Knight: As predictable as he is good. Yeah, he has insane speed, but can only use it up close. His drill and tornado can be annoying, but easily punishable if you block them. Shuttle loop is the only gripe I have about him... It's ridiculously fast and strong... But if you avoid it he's going to be in a state where he needs to attack to cover his mandatory glide afterwards. Not as bad as people make him out to be.
G&W: He's really strong... And fast. Mostly he just lacks range, and has weird laggy movements. I find him a little too plain, honestly. It's like he's got the good stats, but that's it. Well, his Fsmash is a beast, and he can (sometimes?) combo Dsmash from his down grab...
Wow tl;dr.
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Post by Stove on Feb 6, 2014 1:45:25 GMT
*Read it all*
Yeah, Down Throw to Down Smash on G&W is a nice little thing. works with down tilt too, but less so sinc ethe side they end up in is dependent on different factors.
I think I'm gonna try Olimar a bit more.
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Post by VerdantShade on Feb 10, 2014 21:58:05 GMT
. . . Are we talking Project M or Vanilla?
Not that my wii is in any state to play either.
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Post by Indigo on Feb 10, 2014 23:06:39 GMT
Talking Brawl.
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Post by Stove on Feb 10, 2014 23:29:21 GMT
. . . Are we talking Project M or Vanilla?
Not that my wii is in any state to play either. Dat expectation. What's vanilla? I know what project M is, but vanilla? |
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Post by VerdantShade on Feb 10, 2014 23:37:55 GMT
. . . Are we talking Project M or Vanilla?
Not that my wii is in any state to play either. Dat expectation. What's vanilla? I know what project M is, but vanilla?
Of course, Vanilla gets increasingly loose if you combine mods AND expansion packs, as talking about The Elder Scrolls V has demonstrated. |
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Post by Indigo on Feb 10, 2014 23:42:35 GMT
I just don't like how they don't simply call it Brawl. Sounds degrading when there's an unofficial mod hack for people who couldn't adapt from Melee and the original game starts getting called vanilla.
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Post by Stove on Feb 11, 2014 0:16:58 GMT
I just don't like how they don't simply call it Brawl. Sounds degrading when there's an unofficial mod hack for people who couldn't adapt from Melee and the original game starts getting called vanilla. Project M is actually a really good hack of the game, even better than the normal game in my opinion. It did a better job balancing characters than the actual game did, for one. (Do I have the hack avaliable? No. My friend is into those kinds of things.) |
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Post by Indigo on Feb 11, 2014 0:44:15 GMT
Well, it's a good hack, but I don't think it makes the game any better. Brawl's slower pace makes it less mindless and more about prediction and reaction. Also the lack of actual combos makes it more skill-based. Project M? It's just so twitchy so you just twitch around each other hoping for hits because virtually nothing is punishable and every attack is so fast, hitstun makes it easy to combo and KO once you get a hit in. It just turns everything into Melee's Fox, even Ike...
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Post by Stove on Feb 11, 2014 0:50:24 GMT
Well, it's a good hack, but I don't think it makes the game any better. Brawl's slower pace makes it less mindless and more about prediction and reaction. Also the lack of actual combos makes it more skill-based. Project M? It's just so twitchy so you just twitch around each other hoping for hits because virtually nothing is punishable and every attack is so fast, hitstun makes it easy to combo and KO once you get a hit in. It just turns everything into Melee's Fox, even Ike... Maybe in turbo mode, sure, but those combos are harder to pull off than you might think. If you've seen high level melee play it's also what you describe for Brawl; prediction and reaction; it's just that once you get a hit in, if you know what you're doing and judge the opponent's DI right one hit can mean one stock. They basically took that philosophy and put it all into Ice Climbers in Brawl. One Grab = one stock. Melee may be faster paced but that doesn't mean it isn't still about prediction. |
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Post by Indigo on Feb 11, 2014 0:58:07 GMT
Well, I dunno, when I saw Ike just spamming side-B side to side unpunishable with literally no down frames until he hit (or got blocked and just grabbed right out of it) and start combos off of it with near-instant aerial attacks that still hit as hard, I was kinda turned away.
I know what you mean, though, I just don't like how a fast hitconfirm or grab can lead to a finishing blow, because that's what I liked in Brawl. You either have to hit with a decisive blow, or chase them off stage, where they can still fight back. Not just grab near the end of the stage, toss them off, and score a free aerial finisher. Because that's what I saw...
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Post by Stove on Feb 11, 2014 1:01:39 GMT
Well, I dunno, when I saw Ike just spamming side-B side to side unpunishable with literally no down frames until he hit (or got blocked and just grabbed right out of it) and start combos off of it with near-instant aerial attacks that still hit as hard, I was kinda turned away. I know what you mean, though, I just don't like how a fast hitconfirm or grab can lead to a finishing blow, because that's what I liked in Brawl. You either have to hit with a decisive blow, or chase them off stage, where they can still fight back. Not just grab near the end of the stage, toss them off, and score a free aerial finisher. Because that's what I saw... Fair enough (and personally I prefer brawl as well) but I just want to prove the point that (most) combos do require skill and prescise hits and prediction even in themselves due to DI. ...Unless you're Pikachu in the first smash bros. That's not even fair. |
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Post by VerdantShade on Feb 11, 2014 1:05:20 GMT
I just don't like how they don't simply call it Brawl. Sounds degrading when there's an unofficial mod hack for people who couldn't adapt from Melee and the original game starts getting called vanilla.
Vanilla is a much older term than Brawl. It fits the criteria for a "vanilla" game, since it hasn't been modded - there are more projects out there than just Project M, such as simple texture swaps. Yes, even a simple texture swap would "technically" change the "vanilla" status - although most simply say the game is vanilla and move on. Melee itself can be considered "vanilla." Red Alert 2 is "vanilla", while the expansion "Yuri's Revenge" isn't. . . until you complicate things with the "Mental Omega:A perfect Yuri's Revenge" mod, at which point "Yuri's Revenge" ALSO becomes vanilla.
As an aside, I don't remember turbo mode being in the original melee. Being able to begin a new attack the frame you connect a hit seems like a pretty big thing for a fighting game. |
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Post by Stove on Feb 11, 2014 1:10:03 GMT
I just don't like how they don't simply call it Brawl. Sounds degrading when there's an unofficial mod hack for people who couldn't adapt from Melee and the original game starts getting called vanilla.
Vanilla is a much older term than Brawl. It fits the criteria for a "vanilla" game, since it hasn't been modded - there are more projects out there than just Project M, such as simple texture swaps. Yes, even a simple texture swap would "technically" change the "vanilla" status - although most simply say the game is vanilla and move on. Melee itself can be considered "vanilla." Red Alert 2 is "vanilla", while the expansion "Yuri's Revenge" isn't. . . until you complicate things with the "Mental Omega:A perfect Yuri's Revenge" mod, at which point "Yuri's Revenge" ALSO becomes vanilla.
As an aside, I don't remember turbo mode being in the original melee. Being able to begin a new attack the frame you connect a hit seems like a pretty big thing for a fighting game.But we're talking about project M, and it's not the same thing. It basically L-cancels for you. If you're ever able to play the latest version of Project M again, check special brawl. That's where you find turbo mode. |
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Post by Indigo on Feb 11, 2014 1:15:39 GMT
I know it's a wide term, it's just unusual for it to refer to something with unofficial modifications... I think so, anyway. I'm aware of the other mods, though. There's really some amazing custom characters and stages... Edit: Found that old video that was full of amazingness. 1:58 among other stuff. |
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