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Post by Metal on May 24, 2013 19:24:12 GMT
Sure retro gaming evolved already but its not going FURTHER and however much games there were before X cut off point there is only a finite amount, further reduced by which of those finite amount that you actually want to play. The wii doesn't evolve retro gaming, just makes it easier for those who didn't have the original consoles. For those who did, well, the wii is pointless. I guess the Wii U allows for off screen play, but yeah. It might not be going further, but the thing is it doesn't need to, that's kind of the point. People play retro games because they're good, not because they're new and innovative. Like the NSMB series. Aside from the unnecessary motion control gimmicks on the Wii and the simultaneous multiplayer, those games did nothing new, but people played them anyway because they were good. More varied gameplay I can't really argue with, but aside from that I don't quite get what you mean by places feeling like actual places and did you seriously just try to tell me Sunshine 100% completion is as arduous as 64? Don't you have to find about 240 blue coins with no clues whatsoever as to where they might be? And I think I've complained enough about that one pipe on that island you need a Yoshi to get into, but seriously, that's just stupid level design right there. Paper Mario, as good as it is, is simplistic by comparison to Mario RPG. Granted, I haven't actually played Mario RPG yet, but if I'm not mistaken it has actual stats beyond just attack, defense, HP, and FP, there's actual equipment involved beyond randomly finding a hammer you're required to get to progress anyway, your party members aren't completely immortal so you actually have to pay attention to them, you have more abilities, there are ways of healing that don't involve carrying around a Super Shroom... there's just more to it. I haven't played the Prime games, myself, but I'm pretty sure the whole "empty and lifeless" thing was the atmosphere they were going for. Also comparing OoT to the older games isn't a thing you should do. Though overall it seems like you're more inclined to play a game for the story, so you probably wouldn't like them. Not that that means I don't recommend that you try them, I'm not the best judge of other people's tastes, you might like them anyway, I don't know. Yeah, playing games for the story, exactly. And that would be the issue here, you seemingly prefer games to have deep stories and all that, I (and most retro gamers, I assume) focus more on the gameplay. Exactly, because growing up with a sega genesis and a n64 i was content with the story i got in the booklet that came with the cartridge like oh sonic was just chillin bein all super sonic flyin around and then knuckles punched him in the throat and stole dragon balls chaos emeralds his colored squared things and ran off, then eggman robotnik stole them from knuckles and ran off. Didnt need more story than that, i wanted mah squares back. |
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Post by dillybar64 on May 24, 2013 19:32:54 GMT
Paper Mario, as good as it is, is simplistic by comparison to Mario RPG. Granted, I haven't actually played Mario RPG yet, but if I'm not mistaken it has actual stats beyond just attack, defense, HP, and FP, there's actual equipment involved beyond randomly finding a hammer you're required to get to progress anyway, your party members aren't completely immortal so you actually have to pay attention to them, you have more abilities, there are ways of healing that don't involve carrying around a Super Shroom... there's just more to it. Disagreement. The badge system that they added in Paper Mario gives that game a lot more depth. In both games you have only 3 stats that you can upgrade. In paper Mario you upgrade your HP, BP, and FP. In SMRPG you upgrade HP, attack(and defense), and special attack(and special defense). There is nothing more complex about it. When you level up you still pick one of 3 options and having to "manage" 2 defensive stats =/= more complexity/depth. And equipment management is very standard and mostly unnecessary. The hammer and boot upgrades are more important in Paper Mario because they are the main things that change your damage output so the game can be more concretely planned around the player's progression. Party members aren't immortal, but that just means more turns wasted as you have more units to heal. Play SMRPG and get back to me. |
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Post by herpanda on May 24, 2013 19:36:04 GMT
I was going write something long, but this sums it up in much less characters: Now that I really think about it My favorite genre right now is the visual novel by far, oddly enough. RPGs too I guess since those are basically visual novels with grinding in them. Yeah, playing games for the story, exactly. And that would be the issue here, you seemingly prefer games to have deep stories and all that, I (and most retro gamers, I assume) focus more on the gameplay. The moment I saw you couldn't get into Metroid Prime or Ocarina of Time, I knew this summed it up best. What I don't understand, is that you like Sunshine because it's like a virtual world (which is why I prefer it over say, Galaxy, that and Galaxy is boringly easy), but yet you don't enjoy Metroid Prime or Oot? I guess Prime I can understand, but Ocarina? It has more character than Sunshine by far (and both are some of my favorite games). Where would you stand on a game like Shadow of the Colossus? Also, in opposition to "nostalgia" arguments, I played Oot for the first time in 2009. It was my second 3D Zelda game. I did not know it was highly praised (I tried to stay off the internet as much as possible, because I like forming my own opinions and have as little hype and spoilers behind it), believe it or not, and it still blew me away and became my favorite game of all time. It's not nostalgia, or being a "fanboy," it's finding a great game that I didn't even know existed past "it's on this Zelda Collection disk I have here." It also helps that I prefer gameplay heavily over plot, and that the "story" I like best is in atmosphere and lore that you dig up for yourself while exploring. @dethy SMS comment, by feeling like actual places I believe he means it feels like a virtual world. The areas are cohesive, you revisit them multiple times throughout the game, you can explore them, find secrets, find nice little areas that are memorable to just be in and be there. And to the Yoshi boat thing,  it was awesome. lol. As soon as I found out how to get rid of the yellow goo, I realized what would have to be done to get into that warp pipe, and it haunted me. It was like scaling a mountain, and at the top of the mountain there was a huge boss. That kinda ties back into the "actual places" kinda thing; you know there's a "mountain" there and something dreadful waiting for you up top, so it ends up being like, "I'm going to climb that mountain today," so you go there and do it. You're never restricted to do it, and you've seen it throughout the game, and it's kind of what makes the areas feel like "actual places," because you know whats where and stuff. I think that made sense. Maybe. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 19:42:27 GMT
^ I agree with Dilly up there. Personally, I prefer thousand year door anyway.
Sunshine had a lot of really, really stupid things in it. Getting the Yoshi to the island for that one secret star is far too frustrating. Still, I'm pretty sure that it would take just as long in mario 64 to get 120 stars as it would in sunshine. Blue coins aren't too hard to find in retrospect, you run into plenty of grafiti as you go along, for instance.
Many mario games feel like floating platforms with little consitency. They're very much games that feel designed. Mario sunshine looks like an actual resort where I'd want to go on holiday, with lots of fun locations filled with lots of fun locations. I'm not jumping on floating blocks, I'm jumping on buildings and trees which feel like part of the landscape.
And the floodless style levels provide the old school action.
But yeah. Story for me. I'll play plenty of games that focus on gameplay, and maybe atmosphere if it is done right (Don't really like the prime feeling, even if it IS supposed to feel that way) but mainly story. I'd read books but many of them in the popular culture is young adult love triangle stuff I don't like, or boring historical dramas and such. I'm sure there are many exceptions to the rule and that is very broad, but I don't care enough to look. Either way, I prefer the way a visual novel is presented anyway. Don't need to describe anything to me when I can already see the characters and the scenery right in front of me!
In response to herpanda, I think my main problem with OoT is that while it had more individual characters than sunshine, I didn't care about any of them for whatever reason. When inside a dungeon or the overworld, it was all empty and... I didn't like it. I don't really care so much for humor these days but... I guess sunshine just had more of a 'fun' atmosphere.
I also don't really resonate with the broad strokes of the story. In a way, OoT is ABOUT nostalgia. Starting off as a kid, going on an adventure, then learning that the scary man who may or may not have been evil actually was evil and had taken over the world in a period of time where you could do nothing.
I'd like the story more if more places besides hyrule town had been ruined, and if more people had died. Seeing lon lon ranch in ruins and saving epona from the wreckage, hyrule field just as gray and desolate as high rule town, covered in re-deads and bathed in eternal night, the gorons and zoras extinct... I could go on. THAT would be a powerful story.
EDIT: someone asked me about shadow of colossus.
I was down on it until the end, for about the reasons you may expect. So... best 'art' game, if you will, that I've ever played I suppose. The hardest part of the game was definitely trying to navigate my way over to the next colossus, that was easily the most infuriating part of the game for me. As such I suppose I wasn't depressed or bored enough to hate the emptiness of the gameworld. Which isn't necessarily a good thing... but whatever, this may be one of the few instances where being frustrated at a game may have actually improved the play experience for me.
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Post by Carigun on May 24, 2013 21:51:09 GMT
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Post by Death Eye on May 25, 2013 5:26:00 GMT
Paper Mario, as good as it is, is simplistic by comparison to Mario RPG. Granted, I haven't actually played Mario RPG yet, but if I'm not mistaken it has actual stats beyond just attack, defense, HP, and FP, there's actual equipment involved beyond randomly finding a hammer you're required to get to progress anyway, your party members aren't completely immortal so you actually have to pay attention to them, you have more abilities, there are ways of healing that don't involve carrying around a Super Shroom... there's just more to it. Disagreement. The badge system that they added in Paper Mario gives that game a lot more depth. In both games you have only 3 stats that you can upgrade. In paper Mario you upgrade your HP, BP, and FP. In SMRPG you upgrade HP, attack(and defense), and special attack(and special defense). There is nothing more complex about it. When you level up you still pick one of 3 options and having to "manage" 2 defensive stats =/= more complexity/depth. And equipment management is very standard and mostly unnecessary. The hammer and boot upgrades are more important in Paper Mario because they are the main things that change your damage output so the game can be more concretely planned around the player's progression. Party members aren't immortal, but that just means more turns wasted as you have more units to heal. Play SMRPG and get back to me. I'm in no position to argue against most of these points, since I have yet to play the game. But I do have something to say about this: First of all, you probably have full party healing abilities of some sort (or at least I'd hope they have some of them in the game), so it (probably) doesn't take any more turns than in PM, and second, if there aren't that brings into play the issue of who to heal. In PM all there is is "Oh, hey, I have low health, better use an Ultra Shroom" since you only have one HP total to maintain, whereas in SMRPG it becomes a matter of "Oh, hey, this thing just wiped out 3/4 of everyone's HP, uh-oh, better heal somebody, but [assuming an absence of full party healing abilities] who?" (SMRPG is essentially the Emerald Weapon fight from FFVII, right?  ) And to the Yoshi boat thing, it was awesome. lol. As soon as I found out how to get rid of the yellow goo, I realized what would have to be done to get into that warp pipe, and it haunted me. It was like scaling a mountain, and at the top of the mountain there was a huge boss. That kinda ties back into the "actual places" kinda thing; you know there's a "mountain" there and something dreadful waiting for you up top, so it ends up being like, "I'm going to climb that mountain today," so you go there and do it. You're never restricted to do it, and you've seen it throughout the game, and it's kind of what makes the areas feel like "actual places," because you know whats where and stuff. I think that made sense. Maybe. See, I wouldn't mind them putting a "mountain" there if it were actually a "mountain," but as it is "climbing" it is just waiting on a boat for a really long time to make one jump. And that one jump is a really basic jump, it's only "difficult" because it takes two minutes to get back to it to figure out what you did wrong every time you fail. The "mountain" has a really long escalator coming from the base to about halfway up and another one a few feet above the end of that leading straight to the summit, and if you fall you can't catch yourself anywhere. There's probably a list of basic level design principles somewhere on the internet, and wherever it is I don't even have to see it to know that if the guy who made it isn't an idiot that one jump somehow violates two of them. Sunshine had a lot of really, really stupid things in it. Getting the Yoshi to the island for that one secret star is far too frustrating. Still, I'm pretty sure that it would take just as long in mario 64 to get 120 stars as it would in sunshine. Blue coins aren't too hard to find in retrospect, you run into plenty of grafiti as you go along, for instance. Being a person who got all 120 stars in Mario 64, I can tell you that no, it doesn't. In that entire game I don't remember a single thing as obnoxious as that pipe, and how easy the blue coins as a whole are to find doesn't make them any easier if you missed one, in which case you have to search absolutely everywhere in the level - and that's if the game tells you what levels you're missing them in, I actually don't remember if it does. Compare to 64 where the worst searching for hidden things you have is coins if you're somehow bad enough at basic thought to not grab every coin you see if you're going for the 100 coins and a few obscure hidden things in Wet-Dry World you need for one star. Don't even need to read the rest of the paragraph, that pretty well summarizes it there. And I would point out to you that 64's like that, but, uh, Rainbow Ride. Yeah never mind. Don't do that. By "that" I mean supporting Microsoft and formatting your link like that. Outside of the post preview there's literally no way of even knowing there's a link there without looking at your edit there and thinking "Wait, what, there's a link there?" Also Microsoft is horrible, but that's all I'm going to say about that, I'm not going to act like you have to live by my beliefs even if in this case they're factual. |
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Post by Indigo on May 25, 2013 6:36:39 GMT
You know, when people dub games as 'art,' it really just makes it seem over glorified to have some deep meaning or appreciation... I dunno, it kinda just irks me for some reason. Like is saying it's art supposed to make it more beautiful? Not that anyone called a game art here, but I'm close to positive that Al mentioned Shadow if the Colossus as 'art' with apostrophes because that's how everyone goes around calling it on the internet. Nonetheless, it's a game I really loved. Gotta say I was a bit bored at times, but after beating the game, it was very interesting to just run around in such a grand virtual world. With not very much to see, but it's great if you're in one of those moods to just stare at realistic landscapes, and sometimes finding nice little areas.
More on topic... Wait, what was this topic about again? Anyway, I gotta say Ocarina of Time is a game that's never really enticed me. I played it very young, though all I really did was spend hours running around Lon Lon Ranch and Zora's Domain. But throughout the years I've picked it up a few times, and just can't get into it.,, Furthest I got was a while past the time skip. There was a lot of nostalgia as I remember a lot of places and songs from my first time as a kid, but I don't think it really made the game much better...
I like Mario games in general for casual fun, but Sunshine is also my favorite. The environment was great and much more 'real.' Super Mario 64 is a lot more instanced, while Sunshine felt like a big constant paradise made up of real structures and environments. Of course, I love SM64, but I enjoyed Sunshine more as it felt like I was really jumping 'somewhere,' as in not just rendered obstacle courses. And I loved the bright sunlightness and shiny clear eaters everywhere and shooting water everywhere for an overall bright and refreshing paradise experience, too.
Also going on about the paragraph prior to that last one... I loved Windwaker, and played through it twice. Some nostalgia, but not really as much. It's kind of strange as its formula is very OoT-like, and I couldn't finish that one. But I guess the overall style and environment has a pretty strong impact.
I wonder... I mean, I have my share of nostalgic games that I would hold on high regard. Mischief Makers? How great is that game really? One of my favorite games ever, but is that just nostalgia, or am I just drawn to its overall bizarre, comical anime style? Because nostalgia certainly hasn't helped me like SWAT Cats as much as I played that as a kid on SNES, and as much as I praise Ragnarok Online, when I played it again at some point, it was still great, but not as amazing as my memories with it.
I don't entirely know what point I'm trying to make... But I wonder if nostalgia is really a thing that can make a game better. Also, man, why is someone else calling him Dethy.
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Post by Admin on May 25, 2013 10:36:07 GMT
I've disliked the name "Playstation" from the get-go, and by just adding a single number afterward the same name for 4 generations proves that Sony has zilch imagination. Not to mention the controllers have been virtually unchanged in design which further proves it.  Have never cared about Xbox one bit, but considering the last one was called 360, they've could've named this one 1000. I voted for the Wii U, although I'm surprised Nintendo went with such a similar name to their previous console. - Admin |
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Post by Metal on May 25, 2013 12:27:29 GMT
I've disliked the name "Playstation" from the get-go, and by just adding a single number afterward the same name for 4 generations proves that Sony has zilch imagination. Not to mention the controllers have been virtually unchanged in design which further proves it. Have never cared about Xbox one bit, but considering the last one was called 360, they've could've named this one 1000. I voted for the Wii U, although I'm surprised Nintendo went with such a similar name to their previous console. - AdminThey were going to go with xbox infinity, which wouldve been a loads better name, but apparently some microsoft "genius" came up with the idea that it could be "the one entertainment system youll ever need" or w/e the retarted tag line is. So its rather bleh. Also the ps3 was gonna have the boomerang controller but the fanboys complained it was too inovative, admittedly the thing did look stupider than a cross eyed gorrilla, but it was an innovation at least. Sony tries, but the fans are resilient to changes. |
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Post by herpanda on May 25, 2013 13:43:43 GMT
I also don't really resonate with the broad strokes of the story. In a way, OoT is ABOUT nostalgia. Starting off as a kid, going on an adventure, then learning that the scary man who may or may not have been evil actually was evil and had taken over the world in a period of time where you could do nothing. I'd like the story more if more places besides hyrule town had been ruined, and if more people had died. Seeing lon lon ranch in ruins and saving epona from the wreckage, hyrule field just as gray and desolate as high rule town, covered in re-deads and bathed in eternal night, the gorons and zoras extinct... I could go on. THAT would be a powerful story. I dunno if I agree it's about nostalgia, but to me it's more of a barebones, super simplified, vanilla story for an action adventure. The part of the story that I think you're missing out on is just the "atmosphere of adventure" part...because you kind of just have to feel it. I can see what you're saying though, and yeah that'd be pretty cool, but as long as the game (or other games) still gave off that atmosphere while you played I'd be okay. Take Xenoblade for example; there was a HUGE amount of adventurous atmosphere in the Gaur Plains and Fallen Arm. If the rest of the game emulated that feeling as well as it did in those two areas for me, I would have been set lol. But there are times when I just didn't "feel" it. It's a strange part of gameplay that isn't really ever touched on strangely, but I can see why (since it's so hard to describe, you can't classify it as "gameplay" or "story" really). So...I don't know where I'm going with this, but yeah lol. See, I wouldn't mind them putting a "mountain" there if it were actually a "mountain," but as it is "climbing" it is just waiting on a boat for a really long time to make one jump. And that one jump is a really basic jump, it's only "difficult" because it takes two minutes to get back to it to figure out what you did wrong every time you fail. The "mountain" has a really long escalator coming from the base to about halfway up and another one a few feet above the end of that leading straight to the summit, and if you fall you can't catch yourself anywhere. There's probably a list of basic level design principles somewhere on the internet, and wherever it is I don't even have to see it to know that if the guy who made it isn't an idiot that one jump somehow violates two of them. Maybe using the mountain analogy was wrong of me lol, I meant it as more of a location that was persistent throughout the game that you knew you'd cross one day. It didn't bother me much since I was readying myself for it, and as it'll probably be one of the last shines you get I could understand the punishment in failing. They were simple jumps, but the thought of being punished by time is a really cool feeling that I liked. I know it's kinda dumb as a design choice, but it wouldn't have meant as much if there wasn't some kind of huge punishment for failure. But yeah, I see what you mean xD, no need to explain it further. Also, man, why is someone else calling him Dethy. <.< well I saw someone else call him "Dethy" some time ago so I thought it was accepted shorthand since I was short on time. Now that I look back at it I would have spent less time and characters just writing Death Eye, but w/e lol. They were going to go with xbox infinity, which wouldve been a loads better name, Yeah I agree. I actually liked the sound of Xbox Infinity over 720, or even PS4 and Wii U. Buuut...oh well. |
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2013 13:50:09 GMT
The feeling when I stepped onto the bionis leg for the first time in Xenoblade was the feeling I was supposed to have when stepping onto Hyrule field. Bionis leg is a staggering place. It had better music, better enemies, better environment what with the bionis and mechonis above you... and better thematic resonance since even before this, lots of stuff has gone down.
Seriously Fiora > Saria easily. I completely forgot Saria existed and it still boggles me why people ever... well, acknowledge her existence.
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Post by Carigun on May 25, 2013 15:56:23 GMT
Don't do that. By "that" I mean supporting Microsoft and formatting your link like that. Outside of the post preview there's literally no way of even knowing there's a link there without looking at your edit there and thinking "Wait, what, there's a link there?" Also Microsoft is horrible, but that's all I'm going to say about that, I'm not going to act like you have to live by my beliefs even if in this case they're factual. |
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Post by Calamity2007 on May 27, 2013 20:43:51 GMT
Here's my overall opinion of the three console names.
The Xbox One is really stupid and I feel this will confuse a lot of potential consumers.
The Wii U is not really a surprising name that Nintendo game their newest console, but some people have confused it with the regular Wii so I guess it still is a poor marketing decision.
The PS4 is probably the most logical and appropriate name Sony could have given their newest console, most people will know what it is and I don't really see how people could confuse it like the above mentioned consoles.
It is actually an interesting allegory for how I feel about the three consoles as a whole. I really think the Xbox One will not be nearly as successful as the 360. I feel the Wii U, even though it has potential, I do not think Nintendo will take proper advantage of it and it might get into a similar situation the Wii did. And even though it is still too early to say, it seems that the PS4 might have the leading edge this console generation, especially considering all the recent things Sony has done to try to appease core gamers.
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it was awesome. lol. As soon as I found out how to get rid of the yellow goo, I realized what would have to be done to get into that warp pipe, and it haunted me. It was like scaling a mountain, and at the top of the mountain there was a huge boss. That kinda ties back into the "actual places" kinda thing; you know there's a "mountain" there and something dreadful waiting for you up top, so it ends up being like, "I'm going to climb that mountain today," so you go there and do it. You're never restricted to do it, and you've seen it throughout the game, and it's kind of what makes the areas feel like "actual places," because you know whats where and stuff. I think that made sense. Maybe.
