njayhuang
Staff Member 
Cyber Ninja
Without Asuka from Germany, everybody would be lost
Posts: 3,472
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Post by njayhuang on Apr 18, 2015 6:07:37 GMT
Ran out of title space:
Make a non-High Tier borg High Tier by changing as little as possible.
Everyone knows how amazing the High Tier borgs are, so let's talk about something else.
What mediocre or downright terrible borgs could be considered good just by making some small changes?
What seemingly small buffs or additions would actually contribute a great deal to character viability?
Related topic: Make a High Tier borg Low Tier by changing as little as possible.
Someone can make a new thread if they want, or just keep it all here.
Saw something similar on other forums, naturally thought of Gotcha Force. Don't really have time right now to think of specific answers.
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Post by Stove on Apr 18, 2015 13:05:27 GMT
Well, aside from the "give ______ 9999 hp" stuff...
Kung Fu Master :greatly increase the power of his melee strikes.
Walking Bomb: Give him actual attacks and make him always explode when he dies instead of making him a worse Death ICBM.
Tar Diver: Make his melee strikes not so wonky; make them do more damage.
Battle Girl/Kei: Make the Missile much stronger to compensate for the reduced accuracy.
SmallDragons: Make their knockback resistance the same as the large dragons. Everything else is fine.
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thadudette
GFF Administrator 
Orochi-Rin the Beamigo
When I find You, I find myself.
Posts: 5,219 
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Post by thadudette on Apr 18, 2015 21:19:29 GMT
Walking Bomb: Give him actual attacks and make him always explode when he dies instead of making him a worse Death ICBM. He's a little easier to use for us who are terrible at maneuvering air borgs ... XD Phoenix Dragon: Make at least one of his moves homing while gliding. The poor thing.  |
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Post by Frozazen on Apr 20, 2015 23:15:28 GMT
Metal Hero: Let him cut projectiles with his close range moves, and get rid of the auto lock-on mechanic on his close-range moves. Giving this guy complete freedom of movement makes him sooooo much easier to use. Venom worm: Give him the ability to leave bubbles of toxins around, like jet hero. The toxin is contagious to opponent's team. Double Ninja: AI controlled clone that can also be locked-on. Has the same name as the player so it makes deciding slightly more difficult for the opponent. Tao Master: Knives active at any distance, projectile faster shooting rate. That way you can get in, start a close-up combo, and the knives will go in while the opp is in hitstun. Remote bomber: ability to plant a bomb on the opponent (either by projectile or close-range attacks). unaffected by his own bombs. I tried to make them more fun to play as, as well as buff them  |
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Post by Stove on Apr 21, 2015 0:34:13 GMT
Walking Bomb: Give him actual attacks and make him always explode when he dies instead of making him a worse Death ICBM. He's a little easier to use for us who are terrible at maneuvering air borgs ... XD Phoenix Dragon: Make at least one of his moves homing while gliding. The poor thing. Not even then; Walking Bomb doesn't have a way to always explode. |
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Post by Mad'n'Harry on Apr 21, 2015 10:24:15 GMT
Spinner Girl: let her move while her yo-yo is thrown, like everyone else in the game with a similar mechanic.
Shadow Girl: if she didn't fall so much when air-dashing, that's a good start...
Does anyone have a good fix for Shadow Girl?
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Post by Stove on Apr 21, 2015 13:04:04 GMT
Spinner Girl: let her move while her yo-yo is thrown, like everyone else in the game with a similar mechanic. Shadow Girl: if she didn't fall so much when air-dashing, that's a good start... Does anyone have a good fix for Shadow Girl? Make her do at least triple damage. She's supposed to be an assassin. |
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thadudette
GFF Administrator
Orochi-Rin the Beamigo
When I find You, I find myself.
Posts: 5,219
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Post by thadudette on Apr 21, 2015 22:08:32 GMT
Not even then; Walking Bomb doesn't have a way to always explode. Wait, Death ICBM does?  *clearly revealing my ignorance*  |
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Post by Stove on Apr 21, 2015 23:29:53 GMT
Not even then; Walking Bomb doesn't have a way to always explode. Wait, Death ICBM does? *clearly revealing my ignorance* Yeah...just run into the ground or a wall. Walking Bomb can't do that. (I believe?) Walking Bomb has to get hit by a melee attack to explode...which means he's worthless in a 1v1 against, say, Command Girl. |
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Post by Frozazen on Apr 24, 2015 0:45:57 GMT
Walking bomb isn't terrible. He's usable in 2v2 with someone like Arrow Ninja. The fact that he has a level jump lets him dodge most things unlike Death ICBM. The thing that would make him high tier imo is making his cost 200 or so. I wouldn't complain at all if it was like that. But if we're going to make him worth his 350 cost, I think Steve's suggestion would definitely do that. Perhaps for the attacks he could have a bunch of flame attacks like flame ninja, but worse. Nothing long range,because really the only projectiles that are good are shuriken (maybe) and beam shots. I wouldn't give walking bomb beam shots and auto-explosion without raising his cost to 550. Also for shadow girl I'd give her much less lag on her teleport slash, give her sword shockwaves (or just elongate that butter knife), and give her less landing lag. Steve's suggestion of a buff would also be in order. She does like no damage XD The 340 cost was outrageous, but I like her close-range style  I'd also give her a jump-kick to add mobility and damage. That would be amazing <3 I think all the Ninjas that use bombs would benefit from the ability to drop bombs instead of/in addition to throwing them. Like just imagine being able to sidestep an incoming close-range attack, and leave a bomb in your place. And if you use it in the air, the bomb would simply drop downward. There would be no lag, it would lessen recklessly aggressive opponents, and you can also use it to end a combo. Switching Ninja: Scale the startup lag on the switching ability based on the opponent's GF energy cost, with lower cost borgs being much faster to switch places with and dragons and fortress borgs taking about the same time as it normally does. Also either take out the range limitation or increase the area of the switching portal. Also let switching work against everything. EVERYTHING  |
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Post by Stove on Apr 24, 2015 2:20:14 GMT
Walking bomb isn't terrible. He's usable in 2v2 with someone like Arrow Ninja. The fact that he has a level jump lets him dodge most things unlike Death ICBM. The thing that would make him high tier imo is making his cost 200 or so. I wouldn't complain at all if it was like that. But if we're going to make him worth his 350 cost, I think Steve's suggestion would definitely do that. Perhaps for the attacks he could have a bunch of flame attacks like flame ninja, but worse. Nothing long range,because really the only projectiles that are good are shuriken (maybe) and beam shots. I wouldn't give walking bomb beam shots and auto-explosion without raising his cost to 550. Also for shadow girl I'd give her much less lag on her teleport slash, give her sword shockwaves (or just elongate that butter knife), and give her less landing lag. Steve's suggestion of a buff would also be in order. She does like no damage XD The 340 cost was outrageous, but I like her close-range style I'd also give her a jump-kick to add mobility and damage. That would be amazing <3 I think all the Ninjas that use bombs would benefit from the ability to drop bombs instead of/in addition to throwing them. Like just imagine being able to sidestep an incoming close-range attack, and leave a bomb in your place. And if you use it in the air, the bomb would simply drop downward. There would be no lag, it would lessen recklessly aggressive opponents, and you can also use it to end a combo. Switching Ninja: Scale the startup lag on the switching ability based on the opponent's GF energy cost, with lower cost borgs being much faster to switch places with and dragons and fortress borgs taking about the same time as it normally does. Also either take out the range limitation or increase the area of the switching portal. Also let switching work against everything. EVERYTHING Except the air borg style of movement is better for dodging than air jump/dashes... |
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Post by Frozazen on Apr 24, 2015 3:22:22 GMT
For anything long range I'd agree with you, but something like Walking bomb and Death ICBM I'd rather have level jump because that throws off projectiles more consistently. The main reason Walking Bomb is so easy to take down is because his aerial speed is pretty bad. I suppose if Walking bomb was as fast as Gold Hero he'd be a little too good even with the lower altitude, so maybe a movement speed like Normal Samurai, perhaps?
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njayhuang
Staff Member
Cyber Ninja
Without Asuka from Germany, everybody would be lost
Posts: 3,472
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Post by njayhuang on Apr 24, 2015 9:15:46 GMT
For Walking Bomb, I think having a consistent detonate and some super armor or something is all you need. I've always thought his movement was pretty good, or at least he seems to be pretty quick when I fight him, and that hook is nothing to laugh at.
Agree with Harry for Spinner Girl. She has good speed and low cost, and being able to move while attacking at range would bump her way up from Never Used.
I like the other suggestions so far for Shadow Girl. She desperately needs more range on that pocketknife. Or increase her damage output by buffing her attacks or giving her the ability to crit on backstab. Something, anything!
Alternatively, you could fix Shadow Girl by not making her so flimsy. Give her super armor so she can keep approaching/attacking and indirectly solve that damage problem. And give her some more HP! Literally everyone with lower HP is a death borg (or walking bomb or roach). In fact, there are some death borgs that have more HP than Shadow Girl lol.
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Post by Stove on Apr 24, 2015 14:49:14 GMT
For Walking Bomb, I think having a consistent detonate and some super armor or something is all you need. I've always thought his movement was pretty good, or at least he seems to be pretty quick when I fight him, and that hook is nothing to laugh at. Agree with Harry for Spinner Girl. She has good speed and low cost, and being able to move while attacking at range would bump her way up from Never Used. I like the other suggestions so far for Shadow Girl. She desperately needs more range on that pocketknife. Or increase her damage output by buffing her attacks or giving her the ability to crit on backstab. Something, anything! Alternatively, you could fix Shadow Girl by not making her so flimsy. Give her super armor so she can keep approaching/attacking and indirectly solve that damage problem. And give her some more HP! Literally everyone with lower HP is a death borg (or walking bomb or roach). In fact, there are some death borgs that have more HP than Shadow Girl lol. The problem with mking her bulkier is that it kind of ruins her assassin sort of playstyle. |
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Post by Frozazen on Apr 25, 2015 21:34:00 GMT
Megaton robot could use more armor so he can use that crazy head of his more easily. The head comes out so fast already, but you have to be able to come in close to do it... I think Imperial Knight would be much better if he was faster, attack-wise. If his attacks came out faster and ended more quickly then I'd use him much more with that large movepool and double shields Ultimate Cannon should be given super-armor like the large dragons. That would make him much scarier. It would be pretty overpowered in 2v2, though... Teleport Ninja would be amazing if you could plant a return-point for him to teleport back to. Make it his Charge-X (for both planting and returning), and let his Teleport slash be Charge-B. I love the guy's movement speed and maneuverability, but his utility is just so subpar when compared to Neo-G red. Tar and Jelly divers need to be able to slow down Beam shots. The bubble shots could also stand to be faster, as well. Build/Army robot need walls that cannot be penetrated by beam shots. That'd make things real interesting  Fixing Flame Ninja's camera and giving him the ability to shoot fireballs upward would fix most of his problems |
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Post by VerdantShade on Apr 27, 2015 19:52:23 GMT
It's been ages. Do we have an actual Tier List sitting around so I can actually pick out Low Tier borgs, not just. . . uh, guess?
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Post by Frozazen on Apr 27, 2015 21:17:52 GMT
It's been ages. Do we have an actual Tier List sitting around so I can actually pick out Low Tier borgs, not just. . . uh, guess? Eyyy Verdantshade long time no see! We don't really have a community tier list atm. I think we started one, but we weren't that organized so that fell apart. However here's a rudimentary tier list I made in ten minutes or so  I do take cost into account. High tier: Borgs whose power in combat are more or less undisputed; the scary ones that you use when you get serious ------------------ G Red Garuda Neo G Red Command Girl Barrier Girl Slow Valkyrie Blue Striker Orange Fighter Death Borg Sigma Death Borg Sigma II Samurai Shogun Gold Hero Beam Wing Red Proto Red Proto Blue Proto Mars Proto Atlas Flame Dragon Plasma Dragon Blizzard Dragon Cyber Ninja Sapphire Knight Ruby Knight Planet Hero Anubis Wing Machine Red Machine Blue Cyber Mars Cyber Atlas G Black Mid tier: Borgs that could be considered "good" as in they are effective at what they do, but usually there is a borg that does its job better, or the borg's job doesn't guarantee victory. -------------------- Death Arc Vlad Shijima Vampire Knight Normal Ninja Arrow Ninja Teleport Ninja Acceleration Ninja Wire Girl Spike Knight Hatchet Knight Axe Knight Cyber Girl Cyber Girl Hyper Death Borg Delta II Beam Wing Blue Hammer Robot Proto Eagle Ultimate Cannon Beam Gunner Star Hero Eagle Robot Sirius Antares Imperial Knight Dark Knight Chrono Samurai Demon Samurai Akuma Samurai Demon Wing Death Saucer Cosmic Dragon Panther Vehicle Panther Robot Cyber Hero Low Tier: Borgs that rely solely on gimmicks and/or simply cannot compete with the borgs above. ---------------- everyone else I'm sure there are some differences, but I've pretty much been judging based on this. |
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njayhuang
Staff Member
Cyber Ninja
Without Asuka from Germany, everybody would be lost
Posts: 3,472
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Post by njayhuang on Apr 28, 2015 4:08:50 GMT
Here's a GFF tier list I have from a 2009 ( Wow!) .txt file. It should be important to note that this is mostly about 1-on-1 player vs. player theoretical-metagame Gotcha Force. It is not a full list and only includes borgs that are good enough to even be considered in PvP. As such, it leaves out all the borgs that would never be used in that scenario. Low Tier borgs for the entire game wouldn't be on the list at all. Many "Low" and "Mid" Tier borgs on that list are actually very good in Story Mode. You'll also find that some borgs on the list may not be all that good when fighting bosses, multiple enemies, or when taking into account realistic skill. Whether you want to think in terms of Story mode or PvP is up to you. I've been mostly considering Story, with some casual mixed-playstyle PvP. PvP competitive brainstorming gets boring, since it has a high focus on speed/dodging and how much you can spam low-risk ranged attacks. ***Top Tier*** Neo G Red -500 G Black -600 Anubis Wing/Garuda -750 Proto Mars -900 Proto Red -850 Cyber Ninja -640 Sapphire Knight -630 G Red -300 Gold Hero -420 Ruby Knight -590 Beam Wing Red -400 Death Borg Sigma II -180 Cyber Girl -440 Blade Wing -650 Eagle Robot -1000 Flame Dragon -1500 Blizzard Dragon -1550 Plasma Dragon -1600 Planet Hero -530 ***High Tier*** Proto Atlas -850 Beam Gunman -650 Barrier Girl -500 Cyber Girl Hyper -620 Beam Wing Blue -350 Command Girl -330 Teleport Ninja -400 Accel. Ninja -380 Panther Robot -1000 Cyber Girl Super -590 Star Hero -520 Dark Knight -610 Victory Baron -850 ***Mid Tier*** Flame Ninja -590 Proto Blue -800 Imperial Knight -550 Cyber Hero -450 Demon Wing -610 Victory King -1000 Death Borg Sigma -100 Death Borg Lambda II -150 Ring Valkrie -280 Cosmic Dragon -1700 Proto Eagle -850 Panther Vehicle -620 ***Low Tier*** Titan Robot -1000 Drill Robot -500 Beam Tank -780 Jet Hero -350 Chrono Samurai -600 Death Wing -550 Blue Striker -200 Orange Fighter -200 Victory Duke -850 Wire Girl - 220 Ghost Knight -590 Elemental Knight -540 Proto King -800 Hammer Knight -450 Proto Titan -800 Proto Panther -800 Powered Gunman -350 Tao Master -300 Time Bomber -220 ***Undecided*** Slow Valkrie -350 Sirius -1000 Antares -1300 Gatling Gunner -420 Fire Dragon -1000 Ice Dragon -1050 Thunder Dragon -1100 |
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Post by Frozazen on Apr 28, 2015 14:09:03 GMT
^This one is more in-depth than mine, that's for sure I think Jet Hero is in great need of a buff. I want to give the poor guy some beam shots, some slashing attacks, and change the power scope to a witch borg-esque spell that increases power. He looks too cool to be the joke of the Hero unit. |
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Post by VerdantShade on Apr 28, 2015 15:22:58 GMT
Roach could be moved from "Useless" to "Annoying" if given two things - flight in the form of that. . . jet jump? The one with the bar rather than the three jumps and infinite air dashs. Something to use its wings and give it a huge step up in mobility for its measly cost. Of course, one change alone wouldn't do, and for 30 energy you have a stopgap borg with a flat fifty percent chance (at worst) of taking no health damage and instantly activating invincibility frames. . .
This is literally the only thing that comes off the top of my head - I'm currently scouring the wiki for stuff. I'll probably get some down on my favorite borgs that were not 100% impractical, like Tao Master, Alien Insect, and Orange Fighter, assuming those are actually on the Low Tier List and below.
But for now, sleep.
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I made a thing... Long live Gotcha Force!!!
*clearly revealing my ignorance* 
