Competitive Gotcha Force

[Deleted]

Competitive GF is probably totally impossible because of the effort it would take to set up.

Firstly, you'd need to come up with a banlist because otherwise competitive play would consist of nothing but lasers, dragons, and aerial camping.
Secondly, you'd need to set up a bunch of same-level borgs corresponding to the previously mentioned banlist.
Thirdly, it would probably be a good idea to come up with a stage list.

The good news is that if competitive GF ever became a really big thing, a sequel would be indisputably imminent. (yeah right)

So here's a hypothetical competitive ruleset that no one will ever use.

Rules

    Universal

All borgs level 1
No special borg colours allowed
No time limit (No time limit allows more borgs to be unbanned, because stalling for victory is impossible. I can understand having a time limit though, so consider this rule optional.)
No stalling the match (i.e flying really high up and dodging everything with blue striker)
A player who pauses during a match loses the borg they controlled while pausing
Only one memory card must be used, which will contain all borgs used in the garage.
Before each battle, each player sets up their force.
Matches are best of three, as anything longer would take a very long time.
Galactic Emperor and G. Black can't be used, regardless of the current banlist.
On the first round, the stage is decided through stage striking. (One player bans a stage from the starter list, then the other. Repeat until there's only one stage left. There must be an odd number of stages in the list or this won't work.)
After that, the loser of the previous round chooses a stage from the counterpick or starter list. The winner may choose to disallow 2/3 stages from being picked.
    1v1
Only one of each borg allowed
Cost limit is 2000
    2v2
Only two of each borg allowed per team
Cost limit is 1800
Angel borgs are limited to 1 per team, 'team' being inclusive of both players in 2v2 (As Steve has kindly pointed out, they are potentially top tier in this environment. However, I don't think they can completely dismantle a team if only one of them is employed.)

   Banlists

    Universal
G Red (Far too cost-effective.)
Sakuse (The partner borgs are banned because they're hard to obtain and because they essentially allow duplicates.)
Nao
Isaac
Vlad
Kei
Leopard
Musashi
Shijima
Garuda
Jack
Death Arc
Billy
Neo G Red (Again, far too cost effective. If he was, like, 1000 GF energy, he might be OK, but he's not.)
Cyber Ninja (This should be obvious)
Beam Gunner
Command Girl
Cyber Girl
Cyber Grl Super
Cyber Girl Hyper
Flame Dragon (a dragon-based metagame is not fun)
Plasma Dragon
Blizzard Dragon
Fire Dragon (Upon further examination, the small dragons are almost as overpowered as the big ones if not more so due to their lesser cost.)
Thunder Dragon
Ice Dragon
Space Dragon (Still has the breath attack)
Cosmic Dragon
Gold Hero
Planet Hero (Gold Hero's transformation doesn't hold him back and neither does Planet Hero's.)
Star Hero
Beam Wing Blue
Beam Wing Red
Anubis Wing
Orange Fighter (Shockwave bombs allow it to stall indefinitely while still dealing damage.)
Red Attacker (Same as above)
Sirius
Antares
Death Saucer
Death Borg Sigma/ II (Way too cost efficient)
Panther Vehicle (NEVER GONNA CATCH ME NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER)
Death Eye (Vastly powerful in ways incomprehensible to us puny mortals)
    1v1
Wire Girl (Same here.)
Barrier Girl
All machine borgs that cost 800 or more (The mechs are pretty stupid powerful in 1v1 and probably could be banned 2v2 as well, but it needs testing. Testing that will never come to fruition.)
Blade Wing
Jet Hero (In 1v1, staying directly above an opponent is incredibly irritating.)
Wing Soldier
Quick Valkrie
Ice Valkrie
Tornado Valkrie
Wind Valkrie
Ring Valkrie
Slow Valkrie
Death Borg Lambda/ II
Death Wing
    2v2

Questionable borgs that aren't quite bannable

note: These borgs could be banned in the future. They need testing! (if competitive GF ever became a thing) (lol sure)
    Universal
Mechanical Dragon
Cyber Dragon
Demon Wing
Star Hero
Planet Hero
Victory Machine (Can't quite stall indefinitely because its bombs suck, but it needs testing.)
Blue Striker (Has no bombs, but could still stall.)
Eagle Jet
Victory Jet
Carrier Helicopter
Violet Attacker
Ruby Knight (Upon further inspection, both gem knights are overwhelmingly average when you realize how much they cost.)
Sapphire Knight (However, Sapphire's super beam is rather questionable.)
    1v1
Acceleration Ninja
Flame Ninja
Drill Robot
Jelly Diver
Tar Diver
    2v2
Thunder Robot
Patra Witch
Isis Witch

Stage List

        1v1
    Starter
Greater Tricity Area
Kou's Home
Stone River
    Counterpick
Serenity Street
Safaritown Marketplace
Stone River
Kakeru's Home
Red/Blue Death Lair (Considered the same stage for striking purposes)
The Pit
        2v2

enjoy this hypothetical competitive ruleset that no one will ever use ever.
obviously I want to incite discussion about competitive gotcha which is a thing that isn't real and probably never will be
if any discussion actually decides to happen i'll edit this post

[Stove]

Let's be honest, the main reason it'll never be a thing is because of frame drops.

That said, I think Stratosphere shouldn't even be considered as a stage. Red/Blue Death Lair is questionable, but no terrain/a huge ceiling encourages air camping, and with the small dragons allowed this is a bad thing.
Kou's home is a solid stage that I think should be in 1v1. Sunnyside Park and Neo Elementary need to be banned because of their amazing camping areas that make borgs with a superbeam (albeit, many of them are banned) far stronger.
Kakeru's Home is...questionable. The stairs provide good cover, but not to the level of Sunnyside or Neo. I'd say it could be a counterpick.
Mana's home is a no. It's not as bad as Sunnyside, but the books provide cover that's stupid good for any character.
Marketplace is A-Ok. Might want to restrict camping on the sign, but everything else is fine.
Stone River is Marketplace with a less evil sign. Great stage with high and low ground built into the core of the stage.
The Pit is Stone River done poorly. Could still work as a CP of sorts.
Contruction zone is a ban.
Hill is...okay. It has a lot of places to camp, but they don't cover many angles. Maybe a CP.
Serenity Street is a lot like Marketplace. Starter/CP.
Greater Tricity Area is the best stage. Starter, no questions.
Red/Blue Death Lair might work as a CP.
Death Base and Sky Fortress are really similar. Ban because of the Sunnyside syndrome.


So all in all, I think it should look something like this:
Starters:
Greater Tricity Area
Kou's Home
Safaritown Marketplace
Serenity Street

Counterpicks:
Kakeru's Home
Red Death Lair
Blue Death Lair
The Pit


I might come up with a 2v2 list later, as that actually kind of lessens the camping issue and makes more stages possible.
Also in this setting Valkyries are top tier. This makes me happy.

[Stove]

Tested some. I think the small dragons are too powerful for competitive play. They still deal incredible damage and the tool that made them easiest to knock out of the sky, lasers, is almost nonexistant.

[Deleted]

May 27, 2015 22:39:35 GMT Stove said:

Tested some. I think the small dragons are too powerful for competitive play. They still deal incredible damage and the tool that made them easiest to knock out of the sky, lasers, is almost nonexistant.

I tested them as well, and came to the same conclusion.
Lasers form as a sort of counter to flying units but make units that don't use lasers incredibly difficult to use.

[Stove]

May 28, 2015 15:32:28 GMT @inky said:

May 27, 2015 22:39:35 GMT Stove said:

Tested some. I think the small dragons are too powerful for competitive play. They still deal incredible damage and the tool that made them easiest to knock out of the sky, lasers, is almost nonexistant.

I tested them as well, and came to the same conclusion.
Lasers form as a sort of counter to flying units but make units that don't use lasers incredibly difficult to use.

Glad we're in agreement here.
I'm on edge about the Valkyries and Lambda. With wingdashing they are really cost effective, and while they can't hit as easily as Sigma they can dodge hits just as well.

Thoughts? I'd also like to know your opinion on the stagelist.

[Frozazen]

For a game like GF I do agree that 1v1 isn't very friendly without banning a lot of borgs. However I'm not a fan of universal bans (except garuda/anubis wing), so I prefer to talk 2v2 competitive and putting things in tier lists

I also agree that Stratosphere is waaay too large for anything competitive.

I have zero problem with alternate colors (screen peeking makes hiding your borg in a force full of gold borgs pointless and thus makes an all-gold force a status symbol), and I think that the leveling system changes little enough to warrant any level borg being brought into battle. This isn't exactly a 2D fighter, so we don't need to keep things completely uniform. Think more like Pokemon where it's all about taking the squad you've been training with the whole time and pitting yourself against a team someone else had been training. Except the stats mean virtually nothing so rare-hunting players and level grinders can play and have fun while showing off their skills.

2v2 the only bans I'd support would be Garuda/Anubis wing, as no other borg is overly game breaking. Even personal borgs would at least add some variety to the game, since they aren't so broken that something like a dragon would die automatically (except maybe Vlad haha). I'd also move to raise the GF energy bar to 2500 for each force, as challenge mode has this set-up and special mode has at least a 2200 cap. Plus there's enough room for variety, but not too much so that it makes games last forever.

[Deleted]

May 28, 2015 17:53:32 GMT Frozazen said:

I have zero problem with alternate colors (screen peeking makes hiding your borg in a force full of gold borgs pointless and thus makes an all-gold force a status symbol), and I think that the leveling system changes little enough to warrant any level borg being brought into battle. This isn't exactly a 2D fighter, so we don't need to keep things completely uniform. Think more like Pokemon where it's all about taking the squad you've been training with the whole time and pitting yourself against a team someone else had been training. Except the stats mean virtually nothing so rare-hunting players and level grinders can play and have fun while showing off their skills.

First of all, I come from a background of mostly 2D fighters, and the one time I got into Pokemon I played on Pokemon Online where training doesn't exist.
Secondly:

May 23, 2015 18:12:49 GMT @inky said:

Only one memory card must be used, which will contain all borgs used in the garage.
Before each battle, each player sets up their force.

This is because practically nobody owns the game legitimately in the US.

May 28, 2015 17:53:32 GMT Frozazen said:

2v2 the only bans I'd support would be Garuda/Anubis wing, as no other borg is overly game breaking.

G. Red, Neo G. Red, and the dragons are almost more so.

May 28, 2015 17:53:32 GMT Frozazen said:

Even personal borgs would at least add some variety to the game, since they aren't so broken that something like a dragon would die automatically (except maybe Vlad haha).

May 23, 2015 18:12:49 GMT @inky said:

Only one of each borg allowed
The partner borgs are banned because they're hard to obtain and because they essentially allow duplicates.

May 28, 2015 17:53:32 GMT Frozazen said:

I'd also move to raise the GF energy bar to 2500 for each force, as challenge mode has this set-up and special mode has at least a 2200 cap. Plus there's enough room for variety, but not too much so that it makes games last forever.

There's already enough GF energy to have variety, and having a lower cost limit makes you think harder about the borgs you take along.
The cost limit needs testing, though.

May 28, 2015 16:54:07 GMT Stove said:

May 28, 2015 15:32:28 GMT @inky said:

I tested them as well, and came to the same conclusion.
Lasers form as a sort of counter to flying units but make units that don't use lasers incredibly difficult to use.

Glad we're in agreement here.
I'm on edge about the Valkyries and Lambda. With wingdashing they are really cost effective, and while they can't hit as easily as Sigma they can dodge hits just as well.

Thoughts? I'd also like to know your opinion on the stagelist.

I definitely understand your concerns about the fliers.

May 24, 2015 14:47:27 GMT Stove said:

That said, I think Stratosphere shouldn't even be considered as a stage. Red/Blue Death Lair is questionable, but no terrain/a huge ceiling encourages air camping, and with the small dragons allowed this is a bad thing.

Stratosphere is so bad it doesn't even work in 2v2. Hehehehehehehehe.

May 24, 2015 14:47:27 GMT Stove said:

Kou's home is a solid stage that I think should be in 1v1.

Kou's home is definitely a good stage.

May 24, 2015 14:47:27 GMT Stove said:

Sunnyside Park and Neo Elementary need to be banned because of their amazing camping areas that make borgs with a superbeam (albeit, many of them are banned) far stronger.

Agreed.
Neo Elementary might not be that bad, though, seeing as said camping areas only have one exit, and all of them are on the same side.

May 24, 2015 14:47:27 GMT Stove said:

Kakeru's Home is...questionable. The stairs provide good cover, but not to the level of Sunnyside or Neo. I'd say it could be a counterpick.

Agreed.

May 24, 2015 14:47:27 GMT Stove said:

Mana's home is a no. It's not as bad as Sunnyside, but the books provide cover that's stupid good for any character.

Agreed.

May 24, 2015 14:47:27 GMT Stove said:

Marketplace is A-Ok. Might want to restrict camping on the sign, but everything else is fine.

Actually getting onto the sign takes forever and leaves you vulnerable, especially if the opponent predicts your movements.
I don't think it's a problem.
Regardless, I'll test it when my tester is available.

May 24, 2015 14:47:27 GMT Stove said:

Stone River is Marketplace with a less evil sign. Great stage with high and low ground built into the core of the stage.

Agreed.

May 24, 2015 14:47:27 GMT Stove said:

The Pit is Stone River done poorly. Could still work as a CP of sorts.

The Pit is interesting because it has an area with lots of obstacles and an area with little to no obstructions.
You're probably right, though, it's almost certainly a CP.

May 24, 2015 14:47:27 GMT Stove said:

Contruction zone is a ban.

Definitely.

May 24, 2015 14:47:27 GMT Stove said:

Hill is...okay. It has a lot of places to camp, but they don't cover many angles. Maybe a CP.

Little Hill is an infuriating stage to play on in 1v1.

May 24, 2015 14:47:27 GMT Stove said:

Serenity Street is a lot like Marketplace. Starter/CP.

Agreed, but there needs to be an odd number of neutral stages.

May 24, 2015 14:47:27 GMT Stove said:

Greater Tricity Area is the best stage. Starter, no questions.

Agreed.

May 24, 2015 14:47:27 GMT Stove said:

Red/Blue Death Lair might work as a CP.

I'm not so sure about the Red/Blue Death lairs. I'd consider them the same stage for striking purposes at least.

May 24, 2015 14:47:27 GMT Stove said:

Death Base and Sky Fortress are really similar. Ban because of the Sunnyside syndrome.

Agreed.

May 24, 2015 14:47:27 GMT Stove said:

So all in all, I think it should look something like this:
Starters:
Greater Tricity Area
Kou's Home
Safaritown Marketplace
Serenity Street

Counterpicks:
Kakeru's Home
Red Death Lair
Blue Death Lair
The Pit

There needs to be an odd number of starter stages because of how stage striking works.
Apart from that, this is a pretty good list. I've updated the OP with a modified version.

[Stove]

I would say 1500-2500 is the ideal range, but we'd probably err on the lower end of that due to tournaments needing to be completed in a timely manner.
I don't think every borg on the banlist needs to be banned (broken as a game may be, bans are not the answer), but the dragons, GRed/Neo, Anubis and Cyber Ninja definitely are nessecary. Sigma isn't that hard to kill (especially with busters) and Beam Gunner (and the knights), while very strong, can be evaded with anything that walks.
Level and color options is not a good idea, Frozn, mostly because level and color both effect a borg's health, and this is actually a huge deal when a gold level 10 G Red has the health of almost two GReds.

[Death Eye]

Is Gold Hero really all he's cracked up to be in PvP?
Unarmored Gold Hero is slow as heck and has no real meaningful offensive options, meaning he can neither run away properly nor stagger the opponent while the set-up charges. That being the case, is he not most likely gonna be on the receiving end of a beatdown during that charge time?
Then, presuming he lives that long, the set-up animation itself is a solid two seconds or so - plenty of time for the opponent to get in position to hit with their strongest attack.
Maybe it's just that I was using Borgs particularly well-suited to exploit those weaknesses against the AI but I suspect he's probably not gonna live to get up in the sky and rain colorful death on his opponent at least half the time.

[Stove]

Feb 18, 2016 22:14:00 GMT Death Eye said:

Is Gold Hero really all he's cracked up to be in PvP?
Unarmored Gold Hero is slow as heck and has no real meaningful offensive options, meaning he can neither run away properly nor stagger the opponent while the set-up charges. That being the case, is he not most likely gonna be on the receiving end of a beatdown during that charge time?
Then, presuming he lives that long, the set-up animation itself is a solid two seconds or so - plenty of time for the opponent to get in position to hit with their strongest attack.
Maybe it's just that I was using Borgs particularly well-suited to exploit those weaknesses against the AI but I suspect he's probably not gonna live to get up in the sky and rain colorful death on his opponent at least half the time.

Keep in mind you're talking about the AI here though.

[Death Eye]

Feb 18, 2016 22:41:08 GMT Stove said:

Feb 18, 2016 22:14:00 GMT Death Eye said:

Is Gold Hero really all he's cracked up to be in PvP?
Unarmored Gold Hero is slow as heck and has no real meaningful offensive options, meaning he can neither run away properly nor stagger the opponent while the set-up charges. That being the case, is he not most likely gonna be on the receiving end of a beatdown during that charge time?
Then, presuming he lives that long, the set-up animation itself is a solid two seconds or so - plenty of time for the opponent to get in position to hit with their strongest attack.
Maybe it's just that I was using Borgs particularly well-suited to exploit those weaknesses against the AI but I suspect he's probably not gonna live to get up in the sky and rain colorful death on his opponent at least half the time.

Keep in mind you're talking about the AI here though.

Even in human control though, unless I'm forgetting how well unarmored Gold Hero's puny little air-dash works to avoid stuff - which is entirely possible, in fairness - I'm not sure how one would go about not dying in the time it takes to set up against a competent opponent.