OFFICIAL GOTCHA FORCE 2 Brain-storming thread

[Indigo]

^ Yeah, I'm dumb, just realized that after his last post. I thought this was about ideas for an actual Gotcha Force 2. Maybe the topic should be renamed with the name you chose for the game, or at least specify in the first post? There's very little context if you don't check the posts about making a fan-sequel in the other topic... Either way, this does need a rightful topic after all. And going on what you posted in the other one... Of course an online feature would be great, I don't think anyone wouldn't like it.

Edit: Njay added all the context in.

And @frozn, why is the Galactic Pretty Boy in the picture list of spellcasters? He's a giant robot guy.

I also would like if there were some spell caster borgs, but more black magey, like more offensive-magic, ground versions of the Valkries.

[cyberhero303063]

First off, the name ive thought about for months now and what ive chosen is "Planet chasers"

Gotcha box = chaser
Gotcha borg = mega borg, gigga borg, terra borg

New
The borgs will be captured inside of cards called runners, the chaser digitizes the cards and holds the deck. Chasers can be upgraded

[Frozazen]

I like the name Planet Chasers, as well as the card concept. if you ever have a credits screen, you should put a shout-out to Gotcha Force and Capcom in there

Also I like the Hunter class. I've never thought of it, but that's actually a really cool sounding class. Would they be like gunners, but with close-range moves as well?
Elysian sounds pretty cool, like the benevolent foil of demon borgs?

I would take out the elemental borg types (air, fire, ice, plasma), and just incorporate the elements in the other types, like Ice Valkyrie.

It's very impressive that you've gone to school for all this, and thanks for asking us for ideas and being cool in the face of semantics . I now expect big things (aka it being finished haha)

Back on topic, can you give the existing borgs new moves? If not, I'd be content with just assigning different buttons for close and long-ranged moves. There is no end to the number of times I had used the wrong move because I was too close/far.

Sept 8, 2014 4:53:43 GMT Indigo said:

And @frozn, why is the Galactic Pretty Boy in the picture list of spellcasters? He's a giant robot guy.

I also would like if there were some spell caster borgs, but more black magey, like more offensive-magic, ground versions of the Valkries.

Woops my bad. Never watched it XD.
YEEEAH SPELLCASTERS

Sept 8, 2014 4:38:13 GMT njayhuang said:

Sept 8, 2014 0:47:44 GMT Frozazen said:

Spellcasters are cool

Casters are cool, you say?
[insert Caster's entrance]

Caster shows all the boys in the yard the meaning of cool XD

[cyberhero303063]

All existing borgs will get a new look and some added moves like combos. Shooting and mele will be seperate buttons. Hunters are a mix of long and close range projectile, trap, and blaster using warriors but contain other classes, for instance a hunter might have a spear as a mele weapon and a bazooka as a long range. So basically exactly what you said. But i see where you can say what you said sbout elements and i will brainstorm other things. Evolution will be optional. All borg tribes will gain at least 20 borgs

[Indigo]

I'm not sure if I would like separate melee and range... I think it's part of Gotcha Force, and it helps balance things out. It would be too easy to guarantee hits and make melee near-pointless if you could just fly and spam beams right in someone's face. It also adds a sense of dueling action, once you and an enemy are close, you know both of you are going to lock in melee combat, and they can't just kite away spamming beams. Of course, long-ranged borgs (And some others) are exceptions, and that's their speciality, having X attacks or charged attacks that are ranged and work even in melee range.

[cyberhero303063]

With the different opinions we could put it to a vote

[Frozazen]

From my experience, a VS match consists of beam spam, anyway. If you look at the best borgs in the game, the only ones that are actually using close-range in a competitive setting are Planet Hero, Neo G-Red, and G-Black. I do see your point in that the close-range would make it epic, and that sounds fun in a casual match. In all honesty I would like the competitive meta to move towards using 50% long range and 50% close range in a heated battle.

I think the main problems are the high ceilings, and the slow speed of some of the borgs. Anubis Wing is at the top competitively because he just flies way too high, abuses the camera, and just spams his bombs, which hit past shields. Cyber Ninja blazes past all other borgs, and his beams do a lot of damage.

If an opponent is going in close, I'm pretty sure you can expect a close-range match, else the opp would just be playing a distancing game.

My proposed changes are:
-separate the close/long range attacks, mainly for control purposes
-lower the ceiling on the stages
-speed up some of the slower borgs (but still have an appreciable speed range)
-speed up some of the slower projectiles (speed range is still appreciable, but not very)
-more stage effects (I've always wanted a stage with a moving sidewalk)
-Free-For-All option in vs mode (I thought that the lack of teams 3 and 4 was silly. 4 people can want to fight each other!)
-Co-Op story mode

Although my mind is geared towards a mid to fast-paced versus match, I want to make the distinction that I don't want every borg to be equal in terms of strength/speed (GF energy costs is a good thing, and should be used to balance borgs). What I do want, however, is to be able to use more (all, ideally) in a competitive setting.

Now I'm no gaming official, but I have played my fair share of fun and not fun games. My ideal Gotcha Force looks like this:
:thumbsup:A 3D fighting game
(Seems obvious, but I'd like to say that my favorite part of playing Gotcha Force is the range of motion I get while fighting.
While I'm playing, I feel like a hunter. The world is my stage, and I have to work to not only get to my prey, but also take
down the prey. Now imagine 4 hunters on a stage, going after each other. I can't even begin to describe my excitement thinking
about that. Playing Gotcha makes me feel very free when I transition from the fighting box that comes with 2D fighters, or the
ring-based battle of 3D fighters like Tekken or Soul Calibur. The world that the GF battles take place in define Gotcha itself,
and separates it from other 3D fighting games like Gundam Extreme VS, which has a larger horizontal stage, and a lower ceiling
(also the maneuvering is slower).
:thumbsup:Each borg is distinct enough from the other borgs so that you can appreciate someone's use of one over the other
(The Gotcha Force right now does a pretty good job of doing this, imo. Although many moves look the same, the speed, HP,
attack mechanics, and cost differ from borg to borg)
:thumbsup:A diverse set of stages, and a good number of competitively viable stages.
(I like GF's stages. I really do. There are plenty of obstacles to run around, hide inside, slalom through, jump over,
you name it. GF's stages take full advantage of the third dimension. However, I'd say that none of them are truly
competitively viable, and contribute to the beam-spamming meta we have now. The one thing that would solve a lot of the problems: lowering the ceilings. I appreciate Capcom for wanting to give players the experience of flying
3 human meters off the ground and raining beams of light on the poor camera-abused victims below, but it becomes a problem when
making it rain becomes the best strategy (Garuda. That is all). People are fine with fighting Cyber Ninja because he's on the
ground. It gives them a better chance of going in close range and stopping the guy from zipping everywhere. Same with
Acceleration Ninja. What becomes annoying is when borgs like Beam Wing Red and Death Borg Sigma have the same speed (with
wing gliding) and can still spam lasers. I want to say that the Air borgs like Orange Fighter are exempt from my anger because
they have low HP and the maneuvering is easier to hit. My favorite stages are Kou's room, Mana's room, and the Playground. They
are all about the same small-ish size on the horizontal plane (but big enough to explore and run and hide), and have fun
obstacles. A large horizontal plane isn't as bad because the bullets will never reach the opponent if you are too far away.
A high ceiling, however, lets the flier abuse the camera angle (throwing off the auto-aim system), and also dodge shots
aimed upward with plenty of time to react, as well as making close-range useless)
:thumbsup:The game allows beginners to enjoy playing, as well as messing around.
(Aka the replayability factor. Again, the Gotcha Force we have is pretty much geared towards beginners. The slowest moving
borgs are about as slow as we'll tolerate, and there is a good variety of borgs. Who doesn't enjoy flying around with Cyber
ninja at break-neck speeds, or whizzing around with Wire-Girl? Furthermore, good-ol' GF has a collecting system, and a
sort-of storyline, things that contribute to a game's longevity. Storyline is in great need of improvement, though.
Co-op story mode also goes here)
:thumbsup:The game mechanics are at a competitive level
(Continuing off from whizzing around with Wire Girl, not only is it fun, but it has the potential to be competitively
viable. Her quick-escape tactic allows her to move at angles impossible for any other borg. What stops Wire Girl from
appearing on every team is her slow attack speed. I think her movement is decent, since all the other girl borgs are just
as fast, but her attacks move so slowly that she never does any damage in a competitive setting. Capcom nerfed her in order
to balance out her cost and her possession of a unique ability, and did this with every single borg with a unique
quirk. Copy Man, Metal Hero, Tao Master, Tar Diver, Switching Ninja, the list goes on and on (walking bomb should NOT cost
as much as Death ICBM). None of these amazing borgs are used competitively because they either move too slowly, the attacks
move too slowly, or the opp is just too high up. Thus, competitive gameplay is filled with fast beam spammers, high-flying
beam spammers, and huge dragons with super armor. This is why I proposed the changes above)
:thumbsup:A short time needed to play competitively
(This is a separate bullet because this comes before anything competitive can be done. This is how quickly someone can
transition from playing in-game to playing competitively. Gotcha Force places relatively little importance on leveling
borgs. A level 1 borg performs just as well as a level 10 borg. This lets a player obtain a brand new Anubis Wing, and
proceed to kill his friends with it in the same day. So in GF this transition happens pretty quickly. This is more akin to
fighting games, where people want to kick their friends' butts as soon as possible. However, GF, with its collecting system
and roster-based battle system, it takes a bit from RPGs, and gives players the chance to feel the satisfaction that
comes with achieving a max level through time and effort. I take a limited stance on this, as I do sometimes enjoy
leveling, but I play Gotcha Force for the battles. I do caution that if leveling and preparation is too emphasized, then
GF's reputation as a fighting game would take a hit. Take Pokemon, for example, where not only do you have to play through
the entire story mode, you also have to get your pokemon up past level 50, and also meticulously mess with movesets,
abilities, and stats in order to kick some real butt. This is alright because Pokemon isn't a fighter, where the emphasis
is on technical skill rather than number manipulation. I'd like the exp system to be relevant mainly for evolving, but a
few extra HP and a couple more bullets in the magazine doesn't hurt, as long as it isn't game-breaking to level up.
Boosting stats is a big no-no in fighters, though)

The thing about Gotcha Force is that with its unique system of being a 3D fighting game with a larger, more diverse cast than any other fighter ever made, I can easily see why we've all had fond memories with this game. It's cute, quirky, action-packed, and the graphics were amazing for 2003. We can pretty much all agree that this game had the potential to be known worldwide, if it didn't have some key mechanics preventing the enjoyment of battle.

[Indigo]

The main things going against competitive play is the boost system, and beam spam, and it's also partially why melee sees little play.

Boost type borgs are just gimped, air jump types are so much better. They jump and dash around all day, they're practically unpunishable. The boost types take half their boost just to jump up, then can only dash a second or two before dropping down.

A lot of the boost types are understandable though, they're usually heavy or powerful robots. It's pretty fair really. But air jump types have no downside, you can't force them to run out of boost, you can't catch up to them for melee, you can't time shots against them, you can't even hit them with beam spam, they just dash forever dodging anything.

It's a drastic proposition, but what if they had 6-8 jumps, and air dashes drained one jump each? They would still be very nimble and erratic, but have limits akin to its counterpart. Maintaining boost and making the best of it would be important, and melee would see more play since you can't fly forever and would have to keep boosts to dodge.

Fliers, well... An invisible ceiling would be awkward for the game's immersion. What if they had infinite air dashes (they would be slower and floatier), but limited air jumps? That way they could fight in the air the whole time, but only at a certain level where all other borgs are effective. And they would be a little sluggish, needing to dive down for speed.

And beam spam just shouldn't exist... Maybe some rapid firing but not like G-Red. At the very least, if it remains, these weapons should actually have to reload. It's kind of silly that lasers right now are just faster, more accurate and ranged gatling guns that reload in half a second. If they had a few seconds of cooldown, you would have to make your shots better, and blind spamming will give the opponent openings to close in while you reload.

I like the idea of melee range as getting close in Gotcha Force is a more difficult feat. Once in range, the melee attacker has the advantage, whereas everywhere else long ranged attackers have the advantage. Currently, shot attacks are just too dominant and would destroy any trace of melee is they were usable at that range.

In Gundam vs. Gundam, separate shot/melee buttons works because of all of the above. Gundam has a very fluent, fast, and limited boost system, that allows both players to push in or out to their desired ranges, with powerful bursts. For one second your boost is in cooldown, a melee unit can rush in during that lag. In Gotcha Force, it's just kind of unlimited and your only real method of travel/dodging (GvG has alternate side-step dashes), so it's a bit stalematey and encourages kiting with ranged spam (I'm going to have to disagree and say Gundam is much more fast paced).
And also, in GvG, the closest to beam spam is spending your boost to boost cancel and fire repeatedly, and ammo is actually ammo, it runs out and needs time to reload. It allows long ranged units to kite and beam spam, but melee units can focus their boost on closing in. Most ranged attacks have long refire delays without using boost to cancel them.

I mean, I'll be honest here... Gotcha Force and competitive? I play all of my multiplayer games competitively, but I've never thought of 'improving my skills' on Gotcha Force, or trying to get good at dodging (mash dat control stick) or fighting certain borgs. It's like... Trying to play Mario Party competitively. You can get good at some of the mini-games, but eh, it ultimately comes down to other factors. Gotcha Force is an amazing game, but I've only ever played it for fun...

There's a lot of reasons why Gundam vs. Gundam is considered a serious competitive fighting game... And for Gotcha Force to be like that, well, it really would require an overhaul of game mechanics. I would tweak some things here and there, but really, Gotcha Force is all about its freedom in gameplay. I'm not sure if I would want to try and make every borg viable, there's supposed to be varying levels of power and absurdity, and even a cost system can't offset some of that. I don't think everything should be done with competitive play in mind, but perhaps just add some leeway for the skill factor in some of the overall mechanics.

[njayhuang]

Sept 8, 2014 11:57:49 GMT cyberhero303063 said:

First off, the name ive thought about for months now and what ive chosen is "Planet chasers"

Gotcha box = chaser
Gotcha borg = mega borg, gigga borg, terra borg

New
The borgs will be captured inside of cards called runners, the chaser digitizes the cards and holds the deck. Chasers can be upgraded

So runners are "Poke balls" and the chaser is the "PC/Party"? Trying to understand the new terms, they'll probably make more sense in the finished product.

Sept 9, 2014 2:09:58 GMT Indigo said:

I'm not sure if I would like separate melee and range... I think it's part of Gotcha Force, and it helps balance things out. It would be too easy to guarantee hits and make melee near-pointless if you could just fly and spam beams right in someone's face. It also adds a sense of dueling action, once you and an enemy are close, you know both of you are going to lock in melee combat, and they can't just kite away spamming beams. Of course, long-ranged borgs (And some others) are exceptions, and that's their speciality, having X attacks or charged attacks that are ranged and work even in melee range.

You do bring up a good point about the balance between melee and guns. The game should ideally be balanced with both options being viable, and melee does disrupt the spamfest that GF can become at times. However, I'm not a big fan of having the game auto-decide which weapon to use. I'd rather use a melee attack because I evaluated the situation and decided that melee was the better choice, not because the game forces you to. That said, having melee and range on the same button does create an interesting spacing dynamic that I don't think I've seen in other games.

@ Frozn and Claxus' latest posts


I intend to get around it in a few days minimum.

[cyberhero303063]

Ultimately i want the player to have the freedom to choose so im leaning more towards seperate buttons. But i may just make it both. How does that sound?

[Frozazen]

Sept 9, 2014 12:26:33 GMT cyberhero303063 said:

Butbo msy just make it both.

Do you think you can repeat that, just the first word I'm not sure how implementing both would work.

Indigo
Alright just watched a Gundam Extreme VS Full Boost tournament, and I do see what you mean by a faster paced competitive meta. The Gundams seem to have a slower beam speed, lower firing rate, and everyone has a boost jump. There's no infinite dodging, and people capitalize on the opponent landing to move in. With a lowered ability to fly infinitely and less reward for staying long range, there is about the same reward in moving in close-range as there is staying back and shooting. It's really cool, now that I think about it.

I do like your proposition of jumping borgs having 6-8 jumps, with air-dashes counting as a jump. It keeps the game moving, and allows close-range borgs to go in. It's much better than a lowered ceiling alone. Players would still feel that freedom of flying around, as well.
I also like your idea of limited vertical jumps for winged borgs, and infinite horizontal air-dashes. This allows for Wing Gliding to stay in, so the maneuverability doesn't take that big a hit. Furthermore, it also makes you conserve your vertical jumps so that you can't wing glide all the time.

As for balancing close and long-range, I think that lowering the firing rate a bit and increasing the reloading times would be sufficient. In Gotcha Force, close range moves hurt more than long range moves. However, the beam's speed and accuracy let the damage rack up really fast. I'd keep a high firing rate for borgs that specialize in long range, like gun borgs (funny that none of the gun borgs fire as fast as DB Sigma or Cyber Ninja).

Also what I meant by a lower ceiling is that even in Gotcha, there is already an invisible ceiling that no borg save GE can break through. This is the point where bullets disappear, as well. I still think the ceiling should be lowered, because Air borgs would still be able to fly super high up. From a casual play point of view, going too high up is too inaccurate, and you end up missing the opponent a lot while trying to stay as far as possible from them. Lowering this ceiling would help both casual and competitive.


The thing that separates Gotcha Force from Mario Party is that, obviously, GF is a fighting game. I'm sure that even you think of new strategies, and the synergy of borgs on the same team. From what I've read on this forum from the very beginning, plenty of us love that feeling of precisely maneuvering our borgs in order to strike. It's a very satisfying feeling to know that you're in control, and that you know what your opponent can and cannot do. What makes Gotcha Force so cool is that it's a fighter that can be played both casually as well as competitively. Playing through the storyline was very fun for me, because that hunter mentality would let you pick off the opponent like sheep or something. However, when you played against your friends, the atmosphere changes a bit. You are trying your best to outplay your opponent, and taking advantage of every trick you've learned going through story mode. This is what competitive is. It's essentially the next level up from casual play. With the diversity of Gotcha Force, competitive doesn't have to be just mechanically using the most efficient moves. It's your own personal style of play. You can have fun and be flashy, and still take down the opponent. The best parts of a competitive battle is when your opponent uses some crazy strategy that you've never thought of before, and Gotcha can really pull that off.
Just like how many people played Pokemon casually and never thought much of competitive play so many years ago, the competitive scene is just like casual play, but with more attention to detail and personal style.

I am actually a big supporter of the 2v2 competitive side of Gotcha Force, because having a partner really evens the playing field, as support borgs change everything. I wouldn't say that it makes things too random, but rather it diversifies the battlefield and opens up more room for more fun and complex strategies.

[cyberhero303063]

But i may
Were the first words

I love the idea of 6-8 jumps with limited dash it's ballanced

[Frozazen]

I've done some thinking, and I realized that the firing rate didn't really contribute to the beam-spamming meta. It's just that the fast beams were the only things that could hit the opponent, with the winged borgs flying around anywhere. When the game is put into the perspective of girl borgs like Command Girl, beam spam is hardly overpowered. Heck, it could possibly be the most fun part of using her. What was game breaking was the fact that level-jumpers could airdash infinitely, and fliers could go so high up as to make close range useless.

I think the firing rate is pretty alright, but I could understand if the reload times are made a bit longer. I definitely would like shots to hurt a bit more, though. Using any gun borg or Command Girl in versus was terrible because the main method of doing damage would do so little, especially if the shots would miss most of the time. Thoughts?

[cyberhero303063]

I can see your veiw. Shots need more bang. I think gun borgs should have quicker recharge an more ammo

[Indigo]

If boost was more limited, and there was a bit more landing lag overall, things would probably be fine as is. I'd still like to see lasers having to reload for at least another second though. It should depend on the borg, really, like the girl borgs should have faster reloads and more ammo, while a Flame Ninja should reload longer and have less shots. If it was possible to catch opponents running out of boost, rapid fire beams being weak would be fine, since they'd be hitting a lot more often. It would probably be the basic shot for borgs. I'd like to see stuff like single beam orbs and gatling guns, and also shurikens to be a bit stronger, though, as they're harder to hit with, and do even less than beam spam. I would like to see shurikens to be less rapid fire but have better homing, and a bit more damage, or the same current specs but a lot faster projectile speed, as the entire ninja tribe suffers from the most useless main shots in the game.

If fliers had limited air jumps and laggier dashes than normal types, it would be possible to slowly close in on them and overwhelm them with beam barrages and such, while they keep their air advantage. I think their dive could also use a 2-3 second reload since that's also pretty abusable otherwise.

Beams like Sapphire Knight and G-Red's IMO would be nicer if they were slower but did fair damage. Right now they're just insta-hits that serve as wall-hax or mostly just being annoying... Maybe a few borgs could keep that sort of beam, but I'd like beam cannons to actually be more of a threat than annoying, but not like Beam Gunner either.

Beam spam doesn't really have to go, but other options need to be good, too, is the main issue here. Fixing the overly-mobile system right now would fix most problems, but still, the majority of the unique shots in the game are pretty... Pathetic.

[Frozazen]

Sept 14, 2014 6:26:11 GMT Indigo said:

If boost was more limited, and there was a bit more landing lag overall, things would probably be fine as is. I'd still like to see lasers having to reload for at least another second though. It should depend on the borg, really, like the girl borgs should have faster reloads and more ammo, while a Flame Ninja should reload longer and have less shots. If it was possible to catch opponents running out of boost, rapid fire beams being weak would be fine, since they'd be hitting a lot more often. It would probably be the basic shot for borgs. I'd like to see stuff like single beam orbs and gatling guns, and also shurikens to be a bit stronger, though, as they're harder to hit with, and do even less than beam spam. I would like to see shurikens to be less rapid fire but have better homing, and a bit more damage, or the same current specs but a lot faster projectile speed, as the entire ninja tribe suffers from the most useless main shots in the game.

If fliers had limited air jumps and laggier dashes than normal types, it would be possible to slowly close in on them and overwhelm them with beam barrages and such, while they keep their air advantage. I think their dive could also use a 2-3 second reload since that's also pretty abusable otherwise.

Beams like Sapphire Knight and G-Red's IMO would be nicer if they were slower but did fair damage. Right now they're just insta-hits that serve as wall-hax or mostly just being annoying... Maybe a few borgs could keep that sort of beam, but I'd like beam cannons to actually be more of a threat than annoying, but not like Beam Gunner either.

Beam spam doesn't really have to go, but other options need to be good, too, is the main issue here. Fixing the overly-mobile system right now would fix most problems, but still, the majority of the unique shots in the game are pretty... Pathetic.

This. Changing the bullet mechanics based on the borg is the best way to scale the effectiveness of each borg, and set them apart from each other. Shuriken do indeed miss a whole bunch, and I agree with the slight accuracy modification completely. I actually agree with all of the changes you proposed for bullets.

I would agree with the increased landing lag if, as you said, it affected everyone, and only slightly moreso. Something like Beam Gunner has horrible speed, a long-ish boost time, and a decent landing lag. However, he's supposed to be mid-long ranged, so that's alright.

I'm not a big fan of slowing things down, as I'm already used to the speed of some characters. Fliers already have slower airdashes than level-jump borgs; it's just that GF gave them infinite vertical jumps that could cancel the airdash animation so you could start a new airdash instantly. The limited vertical jumps also limit the amount of times one can use the dive move, so I don't think anything needs to be done with the fliers besides giving them limited vertical jumps. Giving them a level-jump meter to limit their vertical jumps (maybe 4 or 5) and keeping the boost gauge for their dive move is what I'd suggest.

As for the SA beams, it is true that G Red and Beam Wing Red tend to spam it a lot, so I'd support the charge time being a bit longer and the beam stronger. For Sapphire Knight, his has a long reload time so that you can't combo it into itself, but it comes out quickly so that he can take advantage of landing lag. Plus that and his shield is what makes him cost 640 GF energy.

[Stove]

Briefly looking at Frozn's post talking about leveling, I AGREE. SO MUCH. There was this MMO I used to play (Elsword) that put way too much emphasis on leveling and it ruined balance in PvP since if you had the best gear and were max level you'd almost always win against people who weren't.

[Deleted]

HM thats interesting I was thinking about doing the same thimg i just need people to realize how awesome of a game it would me.....now ill throw this in....the online thing..you should be able to do raids for example you and a couple freinds would take on the dark knight for mad exp or you know.....an online system relative to sword art online..always online real time gotcha force action

[Deleted]

So is thing actually being made then? "Planet chasers" I'd like more info on it. Where are you in the development stage, ideas? If this actually becomes a thing then, well... That's so jesus of you... Lol. But seriously you should create a progress thread. If there already is one then my bad I'm an idiot and will go look for it.

[cyberhero303063]

this has been pushed back in favor of some other projects but is still pretty high on my priorities list.