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Post by dillybar64 on May 6, 2013 4:26:36 GMT
I am under the impression that anyone can make polls of the day.
If not, ignore the thread title, this is a generic poll thread.
Anyway, yeah... how about that final battle?
What are your thoughts on it.
Did it make a big impact, or barely move you?
How effective is the final battle at being a final battle?
Do you like how they designed that fight? Or do you think it is misguided?
(ignore the fact that this poll of the day is being posted at 11:26PM)
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Post by Death Eye on May 6, 2013 4:46:39 GMT
To quote myself an eternity ago: to be completely honest, the Galactic Emperor disappoints me. I mean, the entire game up to that point puts you in epic boss battles (relative to when they occur, excluding the Demon Samurais, who aren't epic in any context), then they throw a fortress the size of Asia at you, which you'd think would be the most epic battle in the game, but I disagree; the other battles had some qualities that that one doesn't have. All the other bosses have a variety of attacks they can throw at you if they want to, while the GE can only spam one kind of shot at a time. The other bosses (for the most part) have a least a bit of dodging ability, while the GE is stationary. Most of the other boss battles throw other Borgs at you at the same time as your main target, thereby giving you the strategic option of taking them down then fighting the boss one-on-one (kind of epic) or evading the extraneous enemies and just taking down the boss first (also kind of epic). GE is alone. None of the other bosses are capable of truly constant spamming; they're only capable of spamming in spurts. The GE could very well have invented spam, judging by the way he shoots his salvos of spam, his suffocating storms of spam that make the fight rather obscene without an incredibly cheap strategy like burning him to death with a Flame Dragon's breath attack or something. (Seriously, how the h*** did I dodge all that with my Tank Borgs that one time? Oh, wait, I probably didn't.) Some might call this a good thing, but I hate it, probably partly because of all those other disappointing details I mentioned. Ignoring the fact that most bosses have an infinitely respawning squad of minor nuisances, that's all pretty much accurate. Superpowered G Black would've been a thousand times better. Oh, and yeah, anyone can make a PotD, but this feels like the kind of thing that should be a full-fledged thread, if you ask me. |
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Post by Carigun on May 6, 2013 13:49:39 GMT
one of the easyriest fight ever. ok so you fight CDD which can take down Death Saucer and Death Ark (Tamas dream force) in seconds right so you have to use anything that is not a fortress borg. so you would have to use things like beam gunner and G Red. straight after you go for GE and i can bring it down in about 2 mins with Death Saucer job done SIMPLES. shame you cant bring CDD to the fight cause it will take 30 secs.
what dose this come under?
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Post by dillybar64 on May 6, 2013 16:20:46 GMT
one of the easyriest fight ever. ok so you fight CDD which can take down Death Saucer and Death Ark (Tamas dream force) in seconds right so you have to use anything that is not a fortress borg. so you would have to use things like beam gunner and G Red. straight after you go for GE and i can bring it down in about 2 mins with Death Saucer job done SIMPLES. shame you cant bring CDD to the fight cause it will take 30 secs.
what dose this come under? You could always put that under "Other:____" |
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Post by Stove on May 6, 2013 17:21:12 GMT
one of the easyriest fight ever. ok so you fight CDD which can take down Death Saucer and Death Ark (Tamas dream force) in seconds right so you have to use anything that is not a fortress borg. so you would have to use things like beam gunner and G Red. straight after you go for GE and i can bring it down in about 2 mins with Death Saucer job done SIMPLES. shame you cant bring CDD to the fight cause it will take 30 secs.
what dose this come under? If you could bring a complete CDD to the fight it'd take five seconds, not thirty. |
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Post by Death Eye on May 6, 2013 18:02:02 GMT
one of the easyriest fight ever. ok so you fight CDD which can take down Death Saucer and Death Ark (Tamas dream force) in seconds right so you have to use anything that is not a fortress borg. so you would have to use things like beam gunner and G Red. straight after you go for GE and i can bring it down in about 2 mins with Death Saucer job done SIMPLES. shame you cant bring CDD to the fight cause it will take 30 secs.
what dose this come under? If you could bring a complete CDD to the fight it'd take five seconds, not thirty. This. That charge attack is a one-hit kill on everything but the GE, and probably also the GE. |
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Post by dillybar64 on May 6, 2013 19:04:29 GMT
If you could bring a complete CDD to the fight it'd take five seconds, not thirty. This. That charge attack is a one-hit kill on everything but the GE, and probably also the GE. Can you glitch up a preassembled Cyber Death Dragon and test this? |
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Post by Death Eye on May 6, 2013 19:09:30 GMT
This. That charge attack is a one-hit kill on everything but the GE, and probably also the GE. Can you glitch up a preassembled Cyber Death Dragon and test this? I have no idea. It'd probably be easier to use the GE against a CDD, really. |
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Post by dillybar64 on May 6, 2013 19:13:17 GMT
Can you glitch up a preassembled Cyber Death Dragon and test this? I have no idea. It'd probably be easier to use the GE against a CDD, really. Oh yeah... It totally would, wouldn't it.  |
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Post by Stove on May 6, 2013 20:57:16 GMT
This. That charge attack is a one-hit kill on everything but the GE, and probably also the GE. Can you glitch up a preassembled Cyber Death Dragon and test this? Not possible. Even through the glitch, while you can get a complete CDD through method 2, it's X charge doesn't work. HOWEVER, I've set up a Cyber Dragon+Death Head vs a glitched GE in versus, and I know that the beam will OHKO a 3,000 HP Galactic Emperor. From what I've seen any fusion borg's X charge OHKO's any borg. However, Machine Dragon's fused form may have a weaker version. |
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Post by dillybar64 on May 6, 2013 21:13:52 GMT
Can you glitch up a preassembled Cyber Death Dragon and test this? I've set up a Cyber Dragon+Death Head vs a glitched GE in versus, and I know that the beam will OHKO a 3,000 HP Galactic Emperor. From what I've seen any fusion borg's X charge OHKO's any borg. That is terrifying. |
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Post by Carigun on May 6, 2013 21:17:07 GMT
the Cyber Machines cannot take out a full HP Death Saucer in one hit
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Post by Death Eye on May 6, 2013 21:18:24 GMT
the Cyber Machines cannot take out a full HP Death Saucer in one hit Have you actually tested this? Because you just read the GE can't even survive it. Death Saucer just magically surviving it doesn't sound credible. |
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Post by Stove on May 6, 2013 21:22:00 GMT
the Cyber Machines cannot take out a full HP Death Saucer in one hit I can test this if you'd like. EDIT: As usual with me being stupid, I was wrong. It OHKOs everything except fortresses, which it still does roughly 2,000 HP to. Cyber Death Dragon does more though, because I did OHKO Saucer and GE with it. |
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Post by Carigun on May 6, 2013 21:27:46 GMT
the Cyber Machines cannot take out a full HP Death Saucer in one hit I can test this if you'd like. |
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Post by dillybar64 on May 16, 2013 15:54:09 GMT
So, over all, people seem to think that the final battle is kinda poopy.
How do you think they should have "fixed" things?
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2013 17:28:39 GMT
The minute I found out that anything even remotely resembling a drill could utterly destroy GE, he lost his luster. I do agree that he was WAY different from all the other boss fights, but hey, maybe that was /the point/? Not that I'm sticking up for his fight.
Having one dominant strategy to defeat a boss is nothing unheard of, but when you have a game like Gotcha Force, who's biggest thing is variety of playing style, it REALLY hurts to not only have one super dominant method, but to make a lot of other styles -completely unviable-. I mean really. This whole game is supposed to be "so many different borgs, pick a playstyle that suits you!", and then the final boss is "do THIS or lose." Pretty counterproductive..
A boss that would have truly shined for this game would be a boss that conforms to your team. A boss that will always give you a challenge with any composition of borgs, because it formed itself to your team's weakness. Wouldn't that be something?
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Post by Carigun on May 16, 2013 21:16:58 GMT
adding some borgs. (like Dark Knight, Ruby Knight, Sapphire Knight, Death Saucer and tons of death borgs.
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Post by Death Eye on May 17, 2013 1:09:23 GMT
So, over all, people seem to think that the final battle is kinda poopy. How do you think they should have "fixed" things? It's pretty much beyond repair. His one-type-at-a-time quantity-over-quality approach to attacking would have to be replaced with more varied and powerful non-spammable attacks, but the way he's designed isn't really conducive to that. You can't put an oversized instakill Independence Day Beam on him without scrapping the tractor beam, which you need to get in attack range, and you can't not have an oversized instakill Independence Day Beam on a giant sentient brain-in-a-jar UFO thing that does things not related to spamming a billion shots. Also he has like 8 guns that all fire the same thing and putting any more on him with his current design would just be awkward. So he needs a complete redesign if he is to continue being a giant sentient brain-in-a-jar UFO thing, but you'd have to get pretty abstract to not just be upscaling one of the pre-existing Independence Day Beam users. So it probably needs to be a completely different thing, but a cybernetic Eldritch Abomination, a Fortress-type thing that may or may not have transforming abilities piloted by a normal-size main antagonist, and a superpowered normal-size main antagonist that may or may not be G Black all would require varying amounts of plot rewrite to make any amount of sense. The minute I found out that anything even remotely resembling a drill could utterly destroy GE, he lost his luster. I do agree that he was WAY different from all the other boss fights, but hey, maybe that was /the point/? Not that I'm sticking up for his fight. Having one dominant strategy to defeat a boss is nothing unheard of, but when you have a game like Gotcha Force, who's biggest thing is variety of playing style, it REALLY hurts to not only have one super dominant method, but to make a lot of other styles -completely unviable-. I mean really. This whole game is supposed to be "so many different borgs, pick a playstyle that suits you!", and then the final boss is "do THIS or lose." Pretty counterproductive.. What are you talking about, it's not "do THIS or lose" at all. You can also kill him with any Dragon with a breath attack and somewhere around 1300 HP.  That would be interesting, but at the same time it'd be weird with this game not having explicit weaknesses like in Pokémon. Also a given team doesn't necessarily have a particular weakness to exploit. |
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Post by Viroth on May 17, 2013 3:04:59 GMT
The fight is terrifyingly difficult if you still haven't grasped some of the fundamental principles of the game or acquired a basic knowledge of how to deal with Fortress / Huge Dragon borgs, but the difficulty and charm is almost immediately offset by how ludicrously easy he is to destroy once you know how to knock him down with something like Drill Robot.
Summing up what Death Eye said, the battle is designed very poorly and honestly feels half-baked when you really get down to analyzing it. The very basic principles the boss fight rides on are flawed because of the game's nature, it's a rinse - repeat scenario with a disproportionately scaling difficulty. Without knowing how to practically negate the perceived difficulty of the fight with one or two gimmicky borgs, the fight is a poor imitation of most fights in Gotcha Force.
The main problem: The fight tries to simulate some form of variety by switching up Galactic Emperor's attacks but it falls flat because they work on the same boring principle: Shield goes down and GE starts shooting stuff everywhere. You cannot truly create any new strategy decisions within the fight because it all boils down to: Kill Turrets - > Break Shield -> Dance around projectiles while shooting back. There's no special encounters inside the scenario beside; there's no optional objectives to make the fight easier / more interesting nor anything that stimulates the player to do anything other than what they've done all game: Dash, Dodge, and Shoot.
Simply put there's no incentive for the player to think outside the box. While the game does boil down to very basic principles that are repeated (every level is just Fly / Dash around -> Attack for the most part), the flair and variety the game provides is the agent that binds these together to make an enjoyable experience. This is not present in the GE Fight and makes for a very shallow, gimmicky fight that quickly gets boring and unmemorable.
What could they have done to fix it or improve it?
For one they could've made each phase of the fight more remarkable, because as it stands the only indicator you're making progress, besides the HP bar, is how much harder GE starts to hit you. Ratcheting up the difficulty is fine, but they could've added more to it, or even changed the flow of the fight entirely. I for one think it would've been much more interesting if GE was far larger and they focused more on the transporter.
In my opinion: A "level progression" where, say, you fight inside the GE and go destroy his interior sections one by one while fighting an onslaught of death borgs culminating with one final showdown at the very top v.s. the brain in a jar would've been far more climatic.
As to the actual mechanics when fighting the brain, I honestly don't see much way to either salvage the design they had in mind, it'd take much more analyzing, say into other boss fights, to truly say how to make the encounter.
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