Pokemon X and Y

[thadudette]

Feb 9, 2014 17:49:43 GMT Stove said:

Also I seem to be the only person who actually prefers Porygon-Z to Porygon 2. Dat adaptability, flinging out insta-death hyper beams n' shat.

You're not alone in that. Except I've never tried any Eviolite Pokemon, which pretty much renders all of my opinion useless.

[Stove]

Feb 9, 2014 20:35:05 GMT thadudette said:

Feb 9, 2014 17:49:43 GMT Stove said:

Also I seem to be the only person who actually prefers Porygon-Z to Porygon 2. Dat adaptability, flinging out insta-death hyper beams n' shat.

You're not alone in that. Except I've never tried any Eviolite Pokemon, which pretty much renders all of my opinion useless.

Yeah, you don't really count. I'm talking "hardcore" pokemon. (because that exists for some reason.)

[Indigo]

It's really not an issue... Aside from other Trick Room using teams, there's not often going to be more than one Pokemon slower than Kecleon, if they do have a slow Pokemon, because of how important it is to move first. Ferrothorn is the most prominent threat here, and Kecleon will outspeed it without Trick Room. But I only play semi-competitive anyway, because I like my games with both sides just using the Pokemon they like to their best, not just going Ferrothorn Stealth Rock and legendaries and Mega Kangashahn.

Anyway, if there's something slower than Porygon2, all the more power to it. If it doesn't have a fighting move, I can probably wall them out with Thunderbolts/Ice Beams and Recover. I'm also going to be using my Porygon2 with Trace, because it has so many potential uses. And half the Pokemon slower than him aren't going to be slower than Kecleon... But most that are even slower than Kecleon, between the two of them they pretty much always have an option against them.

I also like Porygon-Z more, but my team could really use that tankiness and Trick Room setup. Besides, my Heliolisk is already getting STAB Gekigan Beams with a Normal Gem

[Stove]

Feb 9, 2014 22:52:07 GMT Indigo said:

It's really not an issue... Aside from other Trick Room using teams, there's not often going to be more than one Pokemon slower than Kecleon, if they do have a slow Pokemon, because of how important it is to move first. Ferrothorn is the most prominent threat here, and Kecleon will outspeed it without Trick Room. But I only play semi-competitive anyway, because I like my games with both sides just using the Pokemon they like to their best, not just going Ferrothorn Stealth Rock and legendaries and Mega Kangashahn.

Anyway, if there's something slower than Porygon2, all the more power to it. If it doesn't have a fighting move, I can probably wall them out with Thunderbolts/Ice Beams and Recover. I'm also going to be using my Porygon2 with Trace, because it has so many potential uses. And half the Pokemon slower than him aren't going to be slower than Kecleon... But most that are even slower than Kecleon, between the two of them they pretty much always have an option against them.

I also like Porygon-Z more, but my team could really use that tankiness and Trick Room setup. Besides, my Heliolisk is already getting STAB Gekigan Beams with a Normal Gem

Fighting type moves are why Porygon 2 is not OU and never will be. They're why Snorlax fell from OU. Close Combat in particular, since a ton of common pokemon learn high-power fighting type moves and are able to smash through normal types.
Close Combat is the move that ruined every normal-type's life.

[Indigo]

Yep, but it's not without drawbacks. Anyway, Eviolite Porygon2 with max HP EV can likely survive a non-STAB Close Combat from some Pokemon, he really is buff as heck. Not that he should, but still, worst case scenario he can probably hit back with his good Sp. Attack to dent them nicely, and in general set off Trick Room while taking the attack like a bigshot. His main worry is Fighting STAB.

Kecleon likes Fighting types, by the way. Shadow Sneak priority Protean! Though it honestly sucks in how weak it is, he can become immune to his only default weakness, like a Protect that hurts a little. And Sucker Punch likewise lets him take the Dark or Psychic weaknesses that turning to Ghost would grant him, and it's a very good attack to get STAB off of. He can learn Power-Up Punch (good coverage + buff), but that's probably not worth a lot on Kecleon, or Brick Break otherwise, and he has all bases covered. Last move can be Recover, Retaliate, Rock Slide, or something.

[Stove]

Feb 10, 2014 1:49:40 GMT Indigo said:

Yep, but it's not without drawbacks. Anyway, Eviolite Porygon2 with max HP EV can likely survive a non-STAB Close Combat from some Pokemon, he really is buff as heck. Not that he should, but still, worst case scenario he can probably hit back with his good Sp. Attack to dent them nicely, and in general set off Trick Room while taking the attack like a bigshot. His main worry is Fighting STAB.

Kecleon likes Fighting types, by the way. Shadow Sneak priority Protean! Though it honestly sucks in how weak it is, he can become immune to his only default weakness, like a Protect that hurts a little. And Sucker Punch likewise lets him take the Dark or Psychic weaknesses that turning to Ghost would grant him, and it's a very good attack to get STAB off of. He can learn Power-Up Punch (good coverage + buff), but that's probably not worth a lot on Kecleon, or Brick Break otherwise, and he has all bases covered. Last move can be Recover, Retaliate, Rock Slide, or something.

With protean you might as well not have a "type" anyway.

[Indigo]

True for mindless frog, not Kecleon. He can actually take some hits, and with 40 Speed, changing his type with priority attacks is important. Less important once Trick Room is up, but Kecleon is not as pure-offensive as Greninja. They key thing for Kecleon is Protean and how to make use of it with his wide/tricky moveset. In fact, I'm thinking of giving him back the Flame Orb with Trick, for his last move. Then possibly forget Shadow Sneak and go with Recover, so he can cripple physical fighters and become a wall for both physical and Sp attacks.

Kecleon with Flame Orb: [Power-Up Punch/Brick Break/Retaliate?]/Sucker Punch/Recover/Trick. Maybe. Shadow Sneak isn't as important with Trick Room since he can switch to Psychic on the first move with Trick which also shuts out Fighting, albeit not completely. Then the physical attacker will be burned and crippled offensively for the rest of the fight... Who knows what item Kecleon will get! Life Orb? Choice Band? Something that may be useless, or something that will help him a lot...

Brick Break/Sucker Punch is decent coverage, I think. Not a lot can resist both of those, right? Alternatively, Retaliate can have him be a revenge killer against many Sp. Attackers with a beautiful animated 140 STAB attack... And otherwise it's not a terrible attack to get STAB off of for neutral coverage along with Sucker Punch... But that'd make 3 of his attacks have him be a type weak to Fighting.

I need to play on Pokemon Showdown and test out all my theories... Having to spend a day just setting up/EV training/BP FARMING/breeding my team doesn't help my strategizing process.

[Stove]

Feb 10, 2014 3:08:37 GMT Indigo said:

True for mindless frog, not Kecleon. He can actually take some hits, and with 40 Speed, changing his type with priority attacks is important. Less important once Trick Room is up, but Kecleon is not as pure-offensive as Greninja. They key thing for Kecleon is Protean and how to make use of it with his wide/tricky moveset. In fact, I'm thinking of giving him back the Flame Orb with Trick, for his last move. Then possibly forget Shadow Sneak and go with Recover, so he can cripple physical fighters and become a wall for both physical and Sp attacks.

Kecleon with Flame Orb: [Power-Up Punch/Brick Break/Retaliate?]/Sucker Punch/Recover/Trick. Maybe. Shadow Sneak isn't as important with Trick Room since he can switch to Psychic on the first move with Trick which also shuts out Fighting, albeit not completely. Then the physical attacker will be burned and crippled offensively for the rest of the fight... Who knows what item Kecleon will get! Life Orb? Choice Band? Something that may be useless, or something that will help him a lot...

Brick Break/Sucker Punch is decent coverage, I think. Not a lot can resist both of those, right? Alternatively, Retaliate can have him be a revenge killer against many Sp. Attackers with a beautiful animated 140 STAB attack... And otherwise it's not a terrible attack to get STAB off of for neutral coverage along with Sucker Punch... But that'd make 3 of his attacks have him be a type weak to Fighting.

I need to play on Pokemon Showdown and test out all my theories... Having to spend a day just setting up/EV training/BP FARMING/breeding my team doesn't help my strategizing process.

Missed my point.

[Indigo]

I know what you meant... But despite that he has Protean, his typing is a crippling problem without going out of his way to make use of it just to counteract it.

[Stove]

Feb 10, 2014 4:08:15 GMT Indigo said:

I know what you meant... But despite that he has Protean, his typing is a crippling problem without going out of his way to make use of it just to counteract it.

And you said Greninja doesn't have the same problem.
...except that Greninja is also weak to fighting and one bad switch-in will murder them both.

[Indigo]

You don't switch him into Fighting attacks... You just don't. Besides that, it's barely a problem, because he can outspeed so many Pokemon and dance circles around them with Protean type switching. Kecleon is the opposite. Without Trick Room, he can only rely on Shadnow Sneak to switch before his weakness is exploited, and will otherwise be switching after taking attacks. It's kinda sad how much better Greninja is, but Kecleon does have his own niche with awesome Sp. Def and utility moves.

[Stove]

Feb 10, 2014 22:38:35 GMT Indigo said:

You don't switch him into Fighting attacks... You just don't. Besides that, it's barely a problem, because he can outspeed so many Pokemon and dance circles around them with Protean type switching. Kecleon is the opposite. Without Trick Room, he can only rely on Shadnow Sneak to switch before his weakness is exploited, and will otherwise be switching after taking attacks. It's kinda sad how much better Greninja is, but Kecleon does have his own niche with awesome Sp. Def and utility moves.

Because you can totally know when someone will outpredict you and expect a switch every time.

[Indigo]

At that point it's a common problem for any Pokemon, not just a typing problem. But Greninja has too many common weaknesses and glass survivability to be sending out to take a hit, so you really shouldn't be switching him in like that unless you're out of options... He's really best as a revenge killer, or leading the beginning of the battle, and taking up momentum from there.

In other news, just yesterday, a new Kecleon frontier has begun. Sort of... People have found out how to trade in a Gen 5 Kecleon with tutor moves and a hidden ability flag, and XY considers it legit. Kecleon with Thunder/Ice/Fire/Drain Punch or any of his tutor moves, and once transferred to XY, his ability switches to Protean.

Well... It's kind of cheating, but it's also technically fair. Just bypassing the fact that there's no tutor moves in the current games...

[Rikuseroth]

Getting this this weekend!!

[Stove]

Entei knows Sacred Fire now.
At least it's something obscure like Entei and not Arcanine or Darmanitan or...*shudder*...Heatran.

[Stove]

Feb 10, 2014 23:55:49 GMT Indigo said:

At that point it's a common problem for any Pokemon, not just a typing problem. But Greninja has too many common weaknesses and glass survivability to be sending out to take a hit, so you really shouldn't be switching him in like that unless you're out of options... He's really best as a revenge killer, or leading the beginning of the battle, and taking up momentum from there.

In other news, just yesterday, a new Kecleon frontier has begun. Sort of... People have found out how to trade in a Gen 5 Kecleon with tutor moves and a hidden ability flag, and XY considers it legit. Kecleon with Thunder/Ice/Fire/Drain Punch or any of his tutor moves, and once transferred to XY, his ability switches to Protean.

Well... It's kind of cheating, but it's also technically fair. Just bypassing the fact that there's no tutor moves in the current games...

I've been playing Kecleon on Pokemon showdown recently, and to be honest I haven't used any of those moves. This is my Kecleon:

Kecleon @ Life Orb
Adamant
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Atk
-Power Up Punch
-Sucker Punch
-Shadow Sneak
-Recover

Setting up that Attack boost is easier than you might think when faced with a special attacker. I saw a guy take on a Mega Alakazam who used a protean-boosted Shadow ball on a Kecleon that had just used Shadow Sneak. a Super-effective 80 Base Power attack with STAB coming off of a base 170 SAtk on Kecleon, and it lived. The guy took down a Speed boost Blaziken (two shadow sneaks, thanks to HJK doing half damage on a miss(thanks to the first shadow sneak)) and a Mega Alakazam in the same fight, with a Kecleon. Also, Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak may seem redundant due to nearly identical coverage, but there are a few reasons why having both is useful:
1. Sucker punch is stronger, but can't be used on people who don't use an attack. Want to hit? Use Shadow Sneak. Need more damage and you're sure they will use a direct attack? use Sucker Punch.
2. They provide different immunities and resistances defensively. You can be immune to psychic, normal or fighting, all of which are very valuable.
3. It messes with your opponent. Both give nearly identical coverage but make hitting kecleon tricky. Do you use the Ghost type move and hope they use shadow sneak, or do you try something else if they use Sucker Punch?

I want to make a team full of mindgame-heavy pokemon. So far that's:
Greninja
Kecleon
Aegislash

I find them incredibly fun to use.

Also I swept half a team earlier with this Kecleon set.

[Indigo]

Nov 10, 2013 22:31:05 GMT Stove said:

Nov 10, 2013 21:05:01 GMT Indigo said:

I'd just go with Shadow Sneak if anything, because of the immunities it provides with Protean, rather than the attack or priority. And for the record, Kecleon gets it, too

For the Record, Kecleon still sucks.

How dare you steal my favorite Pokemon, especially after having said this and then use that same exact reason as the reason he's good...

I did end up using a similar moveset, though I used Brick Break instead. I think it's more important to be able to do some burst fighting damage than a power-up side effect, since he doesn't get to use it often, and a lot of the times won't be staying out to keep it, either. You never know when it can help the team against a dual-screener, too. It's an efficient moveset, but I feel it's very situational. Sucker Punch is great, but requires being attacked, and doesn't help his natural weakness. Shadow Sneak is also great, but the damage it does is usually very negligible... But the more important thing is that it rids him of his only natural weakness. It's just beyond that, you have to rely on Sucker Punch or moving second with the fighting move.

Dunno about Recover, I never found it too useful because of Kecleon's low HP and lack of stall tactics. I thought about using Magic Coat instead. A third priority move that also plays around the Dark/Ghost typing. Not that great defensively and no immunities, but still adds another type to worry about, and the possibility of countering any stat-inducing Pokemon (leech seed teams, stall teams, etc.). It at the very least changes your typing to one that resists Fighting, even if it misses... Though its weakness to Dark and Ghost make it a gamble, at the same time Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak make use of that.

Well, on the other hand, playing Kecleon with Porygon2 was surprisingly effective. Porygon2 was extremely reliable at setting up Trick Room, and that Kecleon used Flamethrower/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Recover, which made him an elemental Protean wildcard, that's semi-tanky especially against Sp. Attackers.

In most cases, that physical Kecleon is best, but he's also very potential in Trick Room teams.

[Stove]

Mar 19, 2014 0:42:14 GMT Indigo said:

Nov 10, 2013 22:31:05 GMT Stove said:

For the Record, Kecleon still sucks.

How dare you steal my favorite Pokemon, especially after having said this and then use that same exact reason as the reason he's good...

I did end up using a similar moveset, though I used Brick Break instead. I think it's more important to be able to do some burst fighting damage than a power-up side effect, since he doesn't get to use it often, and a lot of the times won't be staying out to keep it, either. You never know when it can help the team against a dual-screener, too. It's an efficient moveset, but I feel it's very situational. Sucker Punch is great, but requires being attacked, and doesn't help his natural weakness. Shadow Sneak is also great, but the damage it does is usually very negligible... But the more important thing is that it rids him of his only natural weakness. It's just beyond that, you have to rely on Sucker Punch or moving second with the fighting move.

Dunno about Recover, I never found it too useful because of Kecleon's low HP and lack of stall tactics. I thought about using Magic Coat instead. A third priority move that also plays around the Dark/Ghost typing. Not that great defensively and no immunities, but still adds another type to worry about, and the possibility of countering any stat-inducing Pokemon (leech seed teams, stall teams, etc.). It at the very least changes your typing to one that resists Fighting, even if it misses... Though its weakness to Dark and Ghost make it a gamble, at the same time Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak make use of that.

Well, on the other hand, playing Kecleon with Porygon2 was surprisingly effective. Porygon2 was extremely reliable at setting up Trick Room, and that Kecleon used Flamethrower/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Recover, which made him an elemental Protean wildcard, that's semi-tanky especially against Sp. Attackers.

In most cases, that physical Kecleon is best, but he's also very potential in Trick Room teams.

Power Up Punch isn't that much weaker, and it makes the damage the priority moves do far less negligible. Honestly without those priority moves Kecleon would be far less useful on his own. Kecleon's HP isn't too bad if you EV it, and it's what lets him tank special hits to get that power-up-punch in so you can start wrecking things. I find brick break far more situational than Power up Punch as that power boost is far more usable than brick break's ability to break the screen moves that you rarely see in single battles competitively.
Oh, also, earlier today I watched a video of someone skill swapping protean onto a Slaking. It was magnificent.

[Rikuseroth]

So, my main team atm is

Rosarade(subject to replacement)
Ability: Poison Point
Item: Big Root
Leech Seed
Giga Drain
Sludge Bomb
Poison Spikes

Gardevoir
Ability: Trace
Item: Zap Plate
Dazzling Gleam
Future Sight
Psychic
Thunderbolt

Charizard
Ability: Blaze
Item: Charizardite Y
Heat Wave
Shadow Claw
Fly
Flamethrower



I also have

Greninja
Torrent
No item
Acrobatics
Night slash
Waterfall
Extrasensory

Scizor
Swarm
Silver powder
Iron head
X-scissor
Strength
Swords dance

Lucario
Steadfast
Toxic Plate
Poison Jab
Aura Sphere
Bone Rush
Dragon Pulse

[Stove]

Torrent Greninja, who uses that trash.

That aside...
I was IV breeding an Abra, and I had the IVs on a Gardevoir. This Gardevoir was female, so I had to make a male Ralts with her IVs. Bred three eggs and...shiny Ralts.
Considering I was putting Mega Gardevoir on one of my teams already, Gardevoir is among my favorite pokemon of all time, was the second pokemon I ever raised, and the shiny version of Mega is freaking amazing...my reaction was kinda like:

That. It doesn't have the IVs I was after but it does have the right nature thanks to everstone so...










SHINY RALTS EPIC HAX WHOA MAN OMGZ GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH