Official BOTW Discussion (31/10 - Triple Treat!)

[njayhuang]

So Shield Witch can shield her allies. (I thought she could, but I wasn't too sure since I don't play support or pick Mana often.) This is definitely a plus for Shield Witch. Although it's less effective than hitting the enemy,

Uh, I actually prefer Boost Jump ;D Air Jump is useful for some situations and borgs (like if you need to stay airborne for a long time e.g. Gold Hero), but I generally like the smoothness of Boost Jump more.

I think the Heroes' human forms should be lumped in with their hero forms. After all, part of the strategy for the Heroes has to do with the transformation. That, and I don't think the human forms have enough substance to warrant a whole article and a week's discussion.

[MeAmCryzor]

Nov 1, 2011 1:27:47 GMT njayhuang said:

Uh, I actually prefer Boost Jump ;D Air Jump is useful for some situations and borgs (like if you need to stay airborne for a long time e.g. Gold Hero), but I generally like the smoothness of Boost Jump more.

Oh right O.O I swear you said you didn't XD Ahaha, must have been someone else then :3

I was just wondering when we would have an Official Tier List Thread while typing my thing about Vlad. Glad to hear we'll have it up soon, since I'm pretty sure the easiest way to make the Tier List(s) would be to directly compare individual Borgs to decide on the order, then determine the tier divisions. So a running list would be useful

Yup, that's the idea XD I just want two more borgs to make it worth discussing since I assume we all agree on the list so far. I can't remember if you can edit polls onto threads, but if we ever hit a roadblock over which is better or whatever, then I was thinking I just add a poll and leave it a week or something so that it all works out fair.

Also, I will edit your stuff in in a mo so yeah ;D

Additionally, the general consensus seems to be for a mega hero borg ultra super sandwich article so yeah, I'll do that but maybe edit it slightly into two bits.. sorta. You'll see what I mean when it comes to it.

...And since I can't wait, I'mma gonna go ahead and state that the borg for 6/11/2011 is.....

Hammer Robot!

[Frozazen]

well the old tier list discussion thread should still be near the back of the thread pile if i'm not mistaken, so we could always just revive that. the only problem was that we tried to modify gameFAQ's tier list, which did not go well by any means. so i suppose starting from the ground up would be the best option, especially if we go at it one borg at a time.

okay i promise that i'll find time to do a more in depth thing on the borgs later, but for the time being this is what i imagine the tier list to be:

1v1:
Vlad
Killer Girl
Normal Knight
Shield witch

2v2:
Vlad
Normal Knight
Shield witch (don't freak out yet, i still need some more data on her)
Killer girl

okay so I would like to request that someone test some stuff out for me, since i currently do not have a copy of GF (my friend has it):

1. how long does guard witch's/shield witch's barriers last?
2. what attacks can they block? (melee, beam shots, bullets, shuriken, etc.)
3. do they lower the damage of beam lasers?
4. does the witch dying affect the time of the barrier?
5. how many layers can be put on at one time?
6. does adding layers to the shield affect the effectiveness of the barrier (like blocking beam lasers)?
7. are there any differences between shielding your opponent and shielding your enemy?
*if guard witch's barrier is any different from shield witch's barrier, kindly let us know (:

i wish i could playtest the witches to see how well they dodge, but oh well...

[Death Eye]

Nov 1, 2011 19:43:30 GMT Frozazen said:

1. how long does guard witch's/shield witch's barriers last?

I'd estimate about 15 seconds, but I haven't really counted.
(EDIT: I just did. 10 seconds.)

2. what attacks can they block? (melee, beam shots, bullets, shuriken, etc.)

The vast majority of projectiles. It works like a wall, I believe.

3. do they lower the damage of beam lasers?

If I'm exactly right about the wall thing (i.e. it has all the bullet-blocking characteristics of a wall), no.

4. does the witch dying affect the time of the barrier?

Yes. The barrier vanishes when the witch dies.

5. how many layers can be put on at one time?

Presumably an infinite number...

6. does adding layers to the shield affect the effectiveness of the barrier (like blocking beam lasers)?

...but since I'm pretty sure my wall comparison is spot-on, it doesn't really help to have more than one.

7. are there any differences between shielding your opponent and shielding your enemy?
*if guard witch's barrier is any different from shield witch's barrier, kindly let us know (:

Aside from how its position is determined, I doubt it, as I'm pretty sure it works like a wall. Yes, it being a wall answers almost all of your questions.
Also, I'm pretty sure Guard Witch's works exactly the same.

[Deleted]

I'm going to have to disagree with you MeAmCryzor, Normal Knight's Shield Slash is actually pretty helpful.

Shield Slash -> dash to side -> repeat

If you can do that in 1v1 battles, while charging your Cross-shape Slash, you can go into a pretty cool combo. Though like you said on the thread, you lose your shield thus being vulnerable (and that's why you should only use him in 1v1 battles)

[njayhuang]

Replying both to coolfreez and Death Eye's posts.

2. It doesn't block melee attacks, but that may just be because it's a very thin wall or the target is on the near side of the wall when meleeing. I think it does follow the rules of a wall though i.e. drills/javelins go through.

3. I believe they totally block projectiles until the shield takes a certain amount of damage and breaks.

4. The shield counts as one of the witch's projectiles so it disappears when she dies.

6. If you're talking only in terms of bullet-blocking effectiveness, then Death Eye would be correct, but when you factor in that the shields will disappear after a while, it helps to have multiple shields up.

7. When used on the enemy, it blocks his outgoing shots. When used on an ally, it blocks his incoming shots. The shield always works in favor of the team who used it.

I think the only difference between Guard Witch and Shield Witch's shields is HP.

Also according to this Gamefaqs post, Guard Witch's shield has ~200 HP. That seems like pretty important information that should be included in the topic.

[Death Eye]

Since we don't have the Tier List Thread yet, I'll just post this here.

So I was doing what I believe was a battle against a generic Death Force Unit, using Vlad, when a Ring Valkrie showed up.
Because my mind works in odd ways, that got me thinking, and I came to a conclusion.
That conclusion is that Vlad should not be as highly-ranked as we think in a competitive battle because, theoretically, all the opponent would have to do would be to dodge like crazy until you have 1 HP, then get one hit on you, meaning that against an intelligent (but boring) opponent Vlad can only kill Borgs that are slower than him.

Thoughts?

[Deleted]

^ thats the reason I cant stand using Vlad.

[MeAmCryzor]

Nov 5, 2011 20:17:59 GMT Death Eye said:

Since we don't have the Tier List Thread yet, I'll just post this here.

So I was doing what I believe was a battle against a generic Death Force Unit, using Vlad, when a Ring Valkrie showed up.
Because my mind works in odd ways, that got me thinking, and I came to a conclusion.
That conclusion is that Vlad should not be as highly-ranked as we think in a competitive battle because, theoretically, all the opponent would have to do would be to dodge like crazy until you have 1 HP, then get one hit on you, meaning that against an intelligent (but boring) opponent Vlad can only kill Borgs that are slower than him.

Thoughts?

Well, first off, that doesn't apply to a 2v2 situation, since if both enemies are concentrating on avoiding Vlad, then whatever team-mate you have can finish them off... so in a sense, that's actually a reason to pick Vlad in 2v2... ish.

In 1v1, you have a valid point, but Vlads attacks are quite hard to dodge (especially his B shot), and if he gets a hit in on you with a B shot or any other move, there's a high chance he can then pull off a Blood Dance, essentially bringing him back by 1/6th of his hp. Although his hp depletion is fast, lets say 2 hp a second, that means that he will drop to one hp in ohh 2 minutes 20. That may seem like no time at all, but that's more than enough time for your opponent to slip up and for you then to get a Blood Dance in, restoring your time alive by ~23 seconds, and considering how powerful Vlad is, it wont take too many Blood Dances to finish an enemy off.


On a sad note, due to how much work I have today, the BOTW will have to go up tomorrow D:

[Deleted]

You write really good articles. Sorry I haven't been posting user suggestions, I be busy and the borgs havent been borgs I regularly use.

[Stove]

I've ot nothig to say about Hammer Robot, I hate it. (yet I love Killer girl with a passion, 1/4 crystals for an alt btw if anyone cares.)

[Deleted]

Nov 7, 2011 20:34:50 GMT Stove said:

I've ot nothig to say about Hammer Robot, I hate it. (yet I love Killer girl with a passion, 1/4 crystals for an alt btw if anyone cares.)

Ahh! Robosexual! ;D

[Death Eye]

So I just noticed that at the start of the articles with all the damage listings the dashing and landing melees and one of the aerial melees (either the air-dashing melee or the normal aerial one) aren't mentioned.

Also, I can't currently do a strategy write-up, as I have yet to really analyze my Hammer Robot strategy.

Also, a bit of a format question: I have, on at least one occasion, noticed rather obvious strategic failures and other things that I needed to fix in my strategy write-ups. Would it not be easier to modify them if they were directly posted in the thread as opposed to being edited into the first post?

EDIT: I can type up a strategy now.

...Just as soon as I figure out how to start it...

Well, it's Hammer Robot; that's an important detail, obviously.
It's big.
It's a Machine Borg.
It's got hammers.
For some reason it also has mines.
But how do you use it?
Quite simply.
Pretty much your best attack is your hammer shot, or as they call it...
*looks it up*
Double Hammer Shot. How original.
Okay, enough separate lines for everything; it's time for some strategy. You'll want to make heavy use of the Double Hammer Shot; it's powerful, it's somewhat fast, and it has no ammo limits. So charge forward toward your opponent until you get into homing range. (I'm going to presume you know what I mean by that. If you don't, I'll have to explain it visually later.) Once you're in homing range, shoot.
You might find yourself in melee range, though. Maybe you missed and kept moving forward, or maybe your target didn't flinch, or you're not fighting a Borg that dies in one shot, and now you're rather close-up. No problem; you've also got powerful melees. If you're in the air, you can even follow it up with a dash-melee or a landing melee if the target didn't get sent flying too far (which is why I'm not going to recommend the NNC; your target will probably get sent flying too far for that). But if you're on the ground your basic melee might not be a good idea; it's rather slow, so you're probably better off dash-meleeing.

And now is the part where I explain the uses of Laying the Mine.
Looks like a rather unhelpful attack, overall, doesn't it? Just putting some floating mines in front of you? Only an idiot would hit them, right?
Probably, which is why I'm not going to suggest using the mines for their intended purpose. (That's always good advice. ) Instead, you should save them for short-range attacks on large targets, targets near walls, and targets slightly above you.
Fighting a dragon? Lay the Mine.
Fighting a fortress? Lay the Mine.
Fighting another Machine Borg? It's big enough; Lay the Mine.
Fighting a Normal Ninja? Is it slightly above you or against a wall? Then Lay the Mine. (Of course, in those circumstances it's unlikely that you'd really do much of anything by Laying the Mine, so you might be better off just meleeing it.)

What about mobility?
You're dealing with a Machine Borg. And not one of those Machine Borg Corps ones, either.
It's not particularly fast.
Its boost meter runs out quickly.
But it does have a reeeeally long dash.
And even though its boost meter runs out quickly, it does move at a decent speed with it.
So what should you be taking from this?
Basically, unless you need a bit more altitude or directional control, you should probably stick to the ground for your movement.

And while I'm on the subject of mobility, which is directly connected with dodging, I might as well mention blocking.
Yes, I said blocking.
Your Double Hammer Shot can block some shots.
I believe it blocks anything that doesn't go through Borgs, but I could be wrong about that.
Oh, and it can't block yo-yos.

Counters?
Air, Wing, and Angel Borgs can fly so high up that you can't reach them with your shots... presumably...
Aside from that, I can't think of any specific counters.

[Deleted]

Death Eye posted anything that needed to be said about this borg. I was using him yesterday on 1v1 and Cyber Ninja ran (long ranged) circles around this borg. I used him again in 2v2 and the mines slightly increased in usage, but if you really need the mines go for Ruby Knight because (unless your making a Machine Only Force) she has a shield, a decent melee/combos and has a good range game.

I'd say he's Low Tier at best in 1v1 and Low-Mid Tier in 2v2. I havn't tried him in Story Mode because I already have a fixed Machine Team (Issac, Shadow G-Red, Drill Robo and Machine Red) but I don't think he'll fair to well, multiple swarms would give him a run for his money, and trust me this borg CANT run :I

[MeAmCryzor]

Nov 7, 2011 21:11:22 GMT Death Eye said:

So I just noticed that at the start of the articles with all the damage listings the dashing and landing melees and one of the aerial melees (either the air-dashing melee or the normal aerial one) aren't mentioned.

Because no borg I have reviewed yet has dashing or landing melees that are any different from their normal ones, except Killer Girl whom only has a dashing melee and nothing else @.@

Nov 7, 2011 21:11:22 GMT Death Eye said:

Also, a bit of a format question: I have, on at least one occasion, noticed rather obvious strategic failures and other things that I needed to fix in my strategy write-ups. Would it not be easier to modify them if they were directly posted in the thread as opposed to being edited into the first post?

You're kidding me right? You mean you haven't been doing so on my account? Despite me saying right at the start and constantly throughout that it would make everything easier if you just replied to the BOTW thread for that week? Great.

Nov 7, 2011 20:09:13 GMT @alberenza said:

You write really good articles.

Thanks a lot! I'm glad that you like them

[yuurei]

First off two things.

1. Was it mentioned that Hammer robots B shot absorbs projectiles like bullets and beams? (Not like the G-red Charge B beam but like Beam gunner B shot beam.) All attacks like that absorb projectiles if i remember right.

2. Are ya'll checking for Landing attacks on all of these borgs? (When you land and that puff of smoke or whatever is on the screen and you try to Melee, some borgs have extra attacks depending on what Frame type they use.) If i remember correctly Hammar robot shares the same basic Frame as Megaton robot (The robot who throws his head at people for massive damage), so his Landing attack should be a slidekick or something.

One moar thing. HAI GUYZ.

[MeAmCryzor]

Nov 9, 2011 19:41:54 GMT yuurei said:

1. Was it mentioned that Hammer robots B shot absorbs projectiles like bullets and beams? (Not like the G-red Charge B beam but like Beam gunner B shot beam.) All attacks like that absorb projectiles if i remember right.

2. Are ya'll checking for Landing attacks on all of these borgs? (When you land and that puff of smoke or whatever is on the screen and you try to Melee, some borgs have extra attacks depending on what Frame type they use.) If i remember correctly Hammar robot shares the same basic Frame as Megaton robot (The robot who throws his head at people for massive damage), so his Landing attack should be a slidekick or something.

1. I've got it in my notes, but I don't appear to have edited it in, so yeah, I'll do that when I can get to a computer.

2. Death Eye just said that, and yeah I am. When I tested it, I could only get him to do a very slight variant on his air attack, so I didn't think it was worth putting it in as a sepearate attack since it did the same amount of damage and took the same amount of time to pull off. I'll add it in and re-test it to make sure though if you would like me too.

[Death Eye]

Nov 9, 2011 17:09:10 GMT MeAmCryzor said:

Because no borg I have reviewed yet has dashing or landing melees that are any different from their normal ones, except Killer Girl whom only has a dashing melee and nothing else @.@

Killer Girl does a sliding kick-type thing for a landing attack, I think.

You're kidding me right? You mean you haven't been doing so on my account? Despite me saying right at the start and constantly throughout that it would make everything easier if you just replied to the BOTW thread for that week? Great.

Well, you do have a member-submitted section that seemed to serve that purpose... Hence the confusion...

[yuurei]

All the borgs that share the same frame as Battle Girl/Kei will have that slidekick. (Barrier girl, the Cyber girls, Killer girl, Spinner girl, maybe some others i can't remember.) And you gotta try to melee fairly fast. I'd figure it out but i can't find any of my gamecube stuff or gotcha >.<

[MeAmCryzor]

I haven't been able to get them to activate, but that might be because I'm having to land on Sirius, screwing up the game mechanics. If that's the case, it'll mean that I can put them in by fighting against another borg, but will have no idea what the damage will be.

Nov 9, 2011 21:11:46 GMT Death Eye said:

Well, you do have a member-submitted section that seemed to serve that purpose... Hence the confusion...

Yeah, for those bits that either I pick out here, or for those that people PM me. To be honest, there shouldn't be that much confusion, it's all clearly stated on the first page.