Who wins? Round two.

[yuurei]

So who wins in a fight Imp knight or Dark? Assume that both borgs are being played to perfection and the level is either flat or has walls. (When you post please say if your thinking the level is flat or not.)

On a flat level i'm saying Dark has a better chance of winning.

On a Non flat level i think Imp could win because he could camp a wall and he has faster melee options than Dark.

Overall i think Dark will win more times than not.

[njayhuang]

I say slightly in favor of Dark Knight.

Dark Knight has lasers. On a non-flat playing field, Dark Knight may be able to gain a height advantage and shoot lasers from directly above. Otherwise, it'll just be blocked by Imp's shield. Seeing as how Imp can't run away and range, he has to approach.

If Imp is in the air coming toward Dark, Dark could use the flame circle. Imp's air attack is retarded so he'll have to land to attack, and in that time, Dark can dash back and unleash the circle. I don't know if Imp can get a hit in before the circle actually hits Imp, but I think it can. Or Dark could laser. I've found the shield gets kind of wonky when airdashing.

Or if Imp is on a table or something, Dark Knight could do the flame circle underneath him. I don't really see this happening, but it's a possibility.

Also Dark's energy waves travel farther than Imp's I think. Imp's energy waves just kind of go in front of the sword. Dark's energy waves shoot out and home in. So Dark could camp and shoot energy waves.

I'm not sure what would happen in a melee fight though. I think both would wait for the attack, dash/shield, then counterattack. I actually imagine them staring each other down, both waiting for the other to attack first. I dunno.

TL;DR
Dark Knight camps with lasers/energy waves. Imp Knight steadily advances with his shield in front to block Dark's projectiles. Imp finally catches up, and both wait for the other to attack first so they can dodge and counterattack.

This one's pretty even. I don't expect many of Dark's projectiles to hit, but sparse projectiles are better than no projectiles so Dark has a slight advantage over Imp.

My vote: Dark Knight and Tie

[dillybar64]

Imperial Knight has an infinite combo = he wins

[njayhuang]

^Really? I did not know that. What is it?

[dillybar64]

Jun 11, 2011 3:23:41 GMT njayhuang said:

^Really? I did not know that. What is it?

It has to do with the timing and switching of your shields in a standard melee combo.

Ask dragonema about it.
He knows more than I do.
Initially the combo was actually initially brought to my attention from a post of his.

Jul 18, 2009 20:04:23 GMT @dragonema said:

Well when i first got my imperial knight i dissmised it rather quickly, didnt saw much potential.

After giving him another chance and actually taking advantage of the dual swords (supah combo!!!) i just fell in love with it!!!

i mean, he might lack in range , but with his shields and swords, if he gets close those endless comboes will crack you up XD.

[Deleted]

Well, the dark knight has more and better projectiles... so... I'd say Dark knight.
I always play on flat terrains when possible.
an infinite combo is useless if you cannot even get close!

[jakobt]

I rarely use either of these two but I think on any given day either one could beat the other which is why I voted for both of them.

[Death Eye]

I was originally going to say Dark Knight for the lasers.
Then I realized that, technically, if they're being played perfectly they block/dodge everything, meaning the battle never ends.
But I already voted and can't re-vote for some reason...
So Dark Knight.

[Frozazen]

i wouldn't think that projectiles would matter in this battle, since, like the ruby vs sapphire knight thread, both of these guys have shields, and i know for a fact that Dark knight doesn't even flinch when he blocks something, so that makes him even better than most knights. anyway, projectiles will not be doing much in this battle, since the shields are in place

imperial knight will be using his close-range moves, since lightning slash wont work. imperial knight will be air-dashing all over the place, in order to get above dark knight's shield.

if dark knight uses his 3-pronged beam, then imperial knight can block it.

if dark knight tries to go for melee, then imperial knight can also block it, and the result will be in favor of who can lad their hit first. however, i have heard of the infinite combo, but everytime i try it, the opponent always flies off at the standard six hits. apparently you're supposed to just alternate using B and X, and if you time it right, it should get the opponent into an infinite combo. now i'm not sure if the name "infinite combo" came from imperial knight being able to carry on the combo forever, which he can, or if its that he can keep on hitting his opponent forever without causing them to flinch. in any case, if both choose to use close-ranged moves, then whoever gets in the first strike will be able to carry on their combo, and do damage.

if dark knight uses the flame circle, then if the circle is large enough, then imperial knight will be hit before reaching dark knight. if its too small, then imperial knight may be able to take advantage of dark knight's lag to come in for a strike, thus nailing dark knight.

the only thing i don't know is whether or not imperial knight can block the flame circle with his shield, if dark knight can still block if he dashes into a shot, and reappears with the enemy's shot inside him, and if imperial knight flinches when he blocks something. also the question about the infinite combo. if i knew how those worked then i'd be able to give a more accurate answer, since these things are pretty important.

* I like to do my theoretical battles in blue/red death base, to get the fundamentals down. when you add the obstacles and terrain then it really could change a lot of things, but a large, flat terrain is the most basic, so if you see me talking about any kind of borg analysis, it will be in blue/red base, unless i say otherwise

[njayhuang]

^Dark Knight's dash only has the animation of him disappearing, he doesn't actually disappear like Teleport Ninja. So yes, Dark will block with his shield if he dashes into an attack.

[yuurei]

You can block the flame circle. Also Dark doesn't get pushed back when he blocks. This is actually a liability against melee attacks.

[dillybar64]

^people seem to be bringing up the lasers and flame circle in Dark Knights favor.
I would like to point out two things.
First, Imperial Knight has a shield and we are assuming that both borgs are played perfectly... so the lasers would be blocked almost always.

And second:

Mar 10, 2011 1:17:18 GMT njayhuang said:

The fire ring is pretty bad. It only hits when the ring is largest and you can't move while the fire is spreading

[Frozazen]

well yeah, that's why i said that the lazers and the flame attack are bad, especially since we know that now they can both be blocked. so now i'm leaning more towards imperial knight, since even though someone may not be able to use his "infinite combo" (i tried pulling it off... no success), then you can always use his air dash attack (the drill thingie) to charge X move. Dark knight has no combos besides his B B B combo, which isn't that useful

[njayhuang]

Jun 12, 2011 6:53:27 GMT dillybar64 said:

^people seem to be bringing up the lasers and flame circle in Dark Knights favor.
I would like to point out two things.
First, Imperial Knight has a shield and we are assuming that both borgs are played perfectly... so the lasers would be blocked almost always.

I agree; I never said many would hit. But think about this, one laser out of a million lasers hitting is better than not having any lasers at all. If Imp blocks it with his shield, which is the majority of the time, he stops approaching Dark. Since all Imp has are melee attacks, Dark basically shuts down Imp's attack. Or Imp could choose to dodge it, but more on this scenario later.

Jun 12, 2011 6:53:27 GMT dillybar64 said:

And second:

Mar 10, 2011 1:17:18 GMT njayhuang said:

The fire ring is pretty bad. It only hits when the ring is largest and you can't move while the fire is spreading

I still stand by this. On the whole, it's a pretty bad move because it doesn't have a good chance of hitting and Dark Knight is vulnerable while attacking. But against a pure melee borg, if used when the borg is outside of the attack radius, it will either hit or force him to retreat outside of the radius. I don't think Imp Knight can get inside the radius and hit Dark Knight before the fire hits if Dark Knight uses it at the right time.

I tested it out, and the fire circle seems to be unblockable. (Maybe I just suck at blocking, but Imp walked straight toward Dark Knight as he used the flame circle and got hit.) The fire circle and lasers may not be a very good attack, but at the least, it is a good defense option against pure melee. Imp Knight has to approach. Dark Knight has a few ranged attacks that stop his approach.

Dark Knight's strat is something like this Melee match. If you watch, you see that Y. Link throws bombs and boomerangs not to attack Jiggs, but to block Jigg's approach or force Jiggs to dodge/block it. Getting that occasional hit due to human error is just a bonus. Of course Imp Knight could get a hit in and combo Dark Knight to death, but he has to get past Dark's defense first.

Also interesting to note is that the lightning seemed to be unblockable as well. Dark can pull off the lightning far quicker than Imp. So if the battle ends up being a lightning face-off, Dark Knight has the advantage.

You might say, if shielding shuts down Imp's approach, and if some attacks can go through shields, then Imp just won't block with his shield. Just because he has a shield doesn't mean he has to use it; a simple side dash is all it takes to avoid the lightning and the lasers.

This is where a bit of guesstheory comes in. I think a possible way to force a lightning hit for Dark Knight could be charge B lasers, switch swords, lightning. If Imp blocks the lasers, he's stunned by the hit and then hit by lightning; Imp must dash to the side to avoid a hit. I think Dark Knight may be able to time it so that the lightning hits as Imp's dash ends.

I don't know if it is even possible to do pull it off, as this would require:
1. Dark Knight to recover from firing and switch swords in the time it takes Imp to dash.
2. Dark Knight to use the lightning as Imp's dash ends
3. The lightning to hit before Imp can start another dash, or whenever Imp's change in position is negligible so that the lightning hits.
4. Dark Knight must be close enough for 3. to happen and not get hit by Imp.

It would be difficult to get the timing and the spacing down, if at all possible, but it's still another advantage Dark has over Imp.

If the forced hit is impossible, I still think the matchup is a stalemate but slightly favoring Dark Knight. The reason I say that is because in most other matchups, it's two ranged borgs in a match to see who can outrun and outgun each other. I'm sure there's some complex equation involving speed, power of shots, and speed of shots. But in this case, we have one borg who can completely shut down the other's offense. Now we have a matchup where one borg has no attacks. Ideally, they both would take no damage and it would be a stalemate. But I think human error factors into the equation ever so slightly, and so Dark Knight has an ever so slight advantage.

[Frozazen]

well, if Dark knight's flame circle can't be blocked, i'd say that that would be enough to kill imperial knight, who cant do much besides lightning slash or close-range, both of which are clearly outmatched by Dark knight's own lightning slash and flame circle, respectively.

[yuurei]

The lightning would still hit Imp's shield even after blocking the B lasers. The switch in the middle takes to long for Imp to be hit by it except at very close range.

[njayhuang]

Maybe your game is different from mine, but every time I tested lightning against a shield it went through. Same with the flame circle.

[dillybar64]

^I never said that the shield could block lightning or fire.
Just the lasers.
But lightning can be easily sidestepped (unless it is put into a combo, but then what are you going to do) and the fire sucks.

[njayhuang]

I was referring to yuurei's posts where he said that the fire and lightning were blockable by shield.

Also, I can't believe no one caught this, I was wrong when I said Imp Knight had stationary energy waves and no means of range attack. After trying out some stuff, I found out that Imp Knight has the same homing energy waves as Dark Knight. It's only Imp's cross slash that has the stationary energy waves like Sword Knight.

So that whole thing where I said Imp Knight had no viable attack options? Change it to very limited attack options. I still think Dark Knight has the upper hand, but it's even closer to even now.

[Carigun]

well i have only had ever gotten 1 of them the white one (not trying to be racist) um but fighting them Dark Knght seems cool and probably most people i want one.

but cause i never had both i am forced in to going for other.