Borg Tier Issues

[darklingninja]

So I have been playing Gotcha force for almost 6 years now, and on occasion I look around on the internet to see if any of the tier list have been up-dated. The same tier list has existed for as long as I can remember and I am not sure if this is due to the accuracy or lack of interest in making a new tier list.


What ever the reason may be there are huge problems with the most recent and the most recognized tier list.
Link to Tiers List:
gotchaforcefan.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=borgsection&action=display&thread=964&page=1



This tier list seems to be the most competent tier list, but is the tier list is still very subjective. I am going to list the problems with the current borg tier list.

1. Some Borgs tiers are lower just because they have a high learning curve.

Most notably the Dark Knight. The Dark Knight is a great borg with a variety of attacks each with multiple uses, and a great strafe. Knowing when to use these attacks and how to use these attacks takes time, but once learned the Dark Knight becomes a strong counter to Top tier borgs like the beams wings, Neo G, Sigma II, and Planet Hero. A player who has learned how to place a Knight borgs shield properly can block most ranged attacks with it, forcing many borgs to come close to him. The circle blast that the Dark Knights creates can send most borgs who get close to him flying back, allowing the dark knight to set up combos.


A borg tier should be based on the maximum potential of that borg. Just because a something is hard to learn or takes time doesn’t make it bad. No accurate or expectable tier list lowers a characters tier just because there hard to learn how to play properly. That just means that borg takes more skill to utilize properly.


2. Borgs with speed and Rang receive way to much credit.


Great example of this, Gold Hero.

Pros: Great speed and great ranged attacks when transformed. Great combo ability and mediocre close range physicals.

Cons: Is useless out side of transformation, and transformation takes a long time to reload in comparison to most other borg attacks. > Transformation can be canceled <. X-attack is very easy to doge due to lag on start up time, and takes a long time to reload. Once X-attack is used Gold Hero must rely on strafing and B-attack.

Taking these pros and cons into account, we can say Gold Hero is a Glass Cannon. Just because a borg is fast and has ranged attacks doesn’t make it good. (Google glass cannon for those of you who don’t know what that means.)


3. Dismissing Fortress Borgs.


Siris is a good borg. Siris’s attacks are very predictable, and can be easy to doge. But if you move Siris while your shooting the cannons there is a small window where a player can move the beam. (just go play a game with a siris and shot the cannons then move while the cannons are firing) The beam that comes out of the cannon can be moved to follow the borg that is strafing. Yes wing borgs still can doge the cannons regardless, but most other borgs have such a small strafe distance that all a player has to do is move Siris slightly and the shot will hit.

I am not saying Siris should be a top tier borg, but Siris should definitely not be a low tier borg.




- Will Make more additions in the near future -

[dillybar64]

Tiers are lame.
Just have fun.

[Frozazen]

yeah... i totally was going to make a tier list, but i still haven't had the time.

the big dragons should still be on the top top God tier, though. those things are just broken, everyone knows that.

[Dogmantra]

There are two tiers: airdash + beams tier and trash tier.

[M.C.MastaAustin]

as long as your haveing fun in gotcha force (wich is undeniably going to happen no matter what) why care?

[dillybar64]

^Exactly
It's not like there are tournaments or anything.

[darklingninja]

About the fun things that everyone is posting. I agree, all that counts is that your having fun. The thing is, I find competition to be fun. Not to say that there is anything wrong with just playing the game leisurely.

As someone who enjoys competitive gameplay, I like to have definitive facts behind things like tier list.

If someone just wants to play leisurely thats fine, but for someone like me who likes competition, this type of thing is very important.

[Dogmantra]

Nov 10, 2010 15:35:27 GMT @darklingninja said:

As someone who enjoys competitive gameplay, I like to have definitive facts behind things like tier list.

Yeah... never gonna happen. The trouble is that there is no defined metagame for Gotcha Force because it's not played worldwide like all the games where you can make an accurate tier list. There's a game that I play sometimes where my favourite character spent a very long time right at the top of the tier list, he was named "The King of Carries" and got banned every time someone had a chance because he was so powerful. Then he got very slightly nerfed and moved down just a little. THEN the metagame changed and he's now in the lowest viable tier. He's been buffed since, but the metagame hasn't returned to what it was when he was right at the top. He's still extremely powerful, it's just that he's countered by all the most common picks.

The thing with Gotcha Force is that there are no most common picks, and that people who started playing the game and learnt to love Dragons and Fortresses will have a "tank out the damage" metagame, put those borgs at the top and the Knights in the trash tier. Then people like me who evolved a dodgey spammy beams OH GOD THE BEAMS metagame will put Cyber Ninja right at the top and Dragons and Fortresses in the trash tier.

And for a more in-depth example, if you had a "tank out the damage" metagame, you'd also put Gattling Gunner, Gattling Tank and possibly Drill Robot quite high because they can dish out the damage to people who can't dodge. On the other hand, they themselves are rather bad at dodging, so in a dodgey spammy beams OH GOD THE BEAMS metagame, they'd be low.

And to show what the h*** I'm talking about, this would be the top tier (or close to it) if I were to make a tier list for my metagame:
Cyber Ninja
Gold Hero
Neo G Red
Barrier Girl
Beam Gunner
Honorable Mention: Battle Girl

[darklingninja]

@ Dogmantra


You make some really good points, number 1 oint being that it might be impossable to make an accurate tier list. I came to terms with that a while ago, but I still felt a need to adress the problem.

There are some things you said I do disagree with. Metagame and Tiers do have a correlation in most cases, but as you stated people choose borg tribes that they like and because of that there metagame becomes different. If this is case, and I think it is, then metagame is not based on what the borgs tier list is but what borgs people prefer.

So in Gotcha Force's case there is low correlation between common borg choices and Borg Tiers. Which makes common choice have absolutly no effect on the tiers. So even mentioning metagame when talking about borg tiers is pointless.

[Dogmantra]

Perhaps I didn't phrase it correctly.

People's favourite borgs when they start playing the game creates a metagame. Let's say they had a lot of fun with dragons and fortresses. Since they play a lot of them and dominate, they place them tier 1. Then their friend figures out that they die really easily to Drill Robot, Gattling Gunner, Gattling Tank and Samurai Shogun. The metagame then shifts to high, easy to dodge damage and the tough borgs start moving down the tier list. Then the first guy works out that dodgy beam spam sorts out all of those borgs and the metagame changes again. The tiers then change again.

Tiers are based on Metagame which is based (an awful lot) on Borg Preference. Of course, if people don't look for counters, the metagame stagnates and their personal tiers become more and more concrete until they have formed an opinion that (to use my earlier example) Cyber Ninja is the best borg in the game, even if it has a counter.

What I'm trying to say, I suppose, is that if you don't bring up Metagame when talking about tiers then you're left with an incoherent mess that is seemingly random. Why is X better than Y?

[dillybar64]

I just don't like it when games get competitive because that is when the spamming starts.

[Frozazen]

there really isn't a problem with spamming, since in gotcha force, you have a TEAM. in my life, i've seen two tier lists: the super smash bros. tier list, and the pokemon tier list.

in the smash metagame, the position of the character is determined by the versatility of the character in relation to the others, and how good the character would be if the player had the best skills and knew what to do in which position.

in pokemon, its easy to make a team that counters another trainer's, but the tier list is based on the pokemon itself. the meta looks at the movelist, the stats, and its pros and cons when put into battle. of course, that's why no one team will ever come out on top, because people switch out their rosters, and have a team that can counter a certain team, so that would mean the bulk of pokemon would be to choose whichever fighting style you would like best, as long as you have good reason for putting said pokemon in said team.

so Doggy was kind of right when he said the meta was based on preferrence, but that's only what happens when people start out. then more people start to play each other, and figure out the different skills of each borg, the versatility of the borg, it's best relationships on a team, and which team would be the most fun/best fit style for you. then, as more and more people play and figure out the combos, then the tier list changes over time, and as more and more combinations are figured out, then that's when things get fun.

for those of you who say that "we're never gonna have a tournament, so it doesn't matter" don't really understand why some would want a tier list. i'll admit that i'm a competitive person, and i like to look at a tier list, but it's not the position i really care about, it's why the character is in that spot. why is falco at the top in SSBM? oh, it's because of his shine-spike, his lasers, his spike, his wide range of moves, both long range and short range, and his power. fox is right below him because his shine combos go through the roof, and he's really fast, too. most of the high-tier characters are there because their combos go well against fast-fallers, and therefore they are good against themselves. it's fun as well as devastating when you pull off a combo, and that leads to the position on the list. there are other reasons, but you can look those up yourself.

see, we're the explorers of Gotcha Force. most people pick up a game, look at the tier list, and look up the stuff. We can actually DISCOVER the stuff, and use it, and surprise people with it, and show that our most favorite borgs are the best ones. Granted, things go faster with more tournaments, but still, I think it's worthwhile to maybe just put our mark on gotcha-history, and really figure out the full potential of all of these guys.

[dillybar64]

Team goes out the window.
It is my little brother and I playing.
As for spamming, when you have Neo G-Red/Black with their Spammable G Crash...
Uugh.
He is a versatile borg, it's just that because his spam move is so good that versatility is a plan B for him.

And keep in mind that you get another Neo G-Red at the end of the game.
I have to fight 3 of these guys every time I play multiplayer unless we either ban the G's (which doesn't solve the problem of spamming) or we don't get so competitive.

[njayhuang]

The tier list on the first page is old. The newest tier list may have been posted later in the tier list thread. For convenience's sake, I have it attached to this post.

Gotcha Force has no competitive scene and thus no metagame. The tier list can only be based on hypothetical competitive battles. It cannot be assumed that every character is played to its absolute maximum potential, i.e. human mistake should be a considered factor. But it is assumed that the borg is played close to maximum potential.

With that said, looking at the paragraph about Dark Knight, it would appear that Dark Knight is clearly the best borg. It has shields that can block projectiles, good range attacks, and good melee attacks. The other player will get bored of having its shots blocked and come in close to melee, at which point it will come face-to-face with a fiery circle of death or a sword combo. Repeat and win.

But consider another perspective. Let's say Cyber Ninja against some borg. All Cyber Ninja has to do is airdash to dodge the opponent's range attack and fire back some lazors. Eventually one will hit. If he tries to come in for a melee attack, Cyber Ninja can just dash away. His speed pretty much ensures that no attack will hit. If something does manage to come close, like Acceleration Ninja, just melee it with any one of Cyber Ninja's strong melee attacks. Repeat and win.

Now let's place Dark Knight against Cyber Ninja. Looking back at the strats, both are similar: stay away and fire lasers. A good Dark Knight would shield all the shots. A good Cyber Ninja would dodge all the shots. If both borgs were played to perfection, even if the battle went ad infinitum, it would result in a draw, with both borgs at full health. We must then factor in human error.

Is it more likely for Cyber Ninja to dodge a shot or for Dark Knight to block a shot? The general consensus is that it is easier to dodge by airdashing with Cyber Ninja and harder to position Dark Knight's shield correctly. This is not to say that easier equals better. After all, it is easier to stand still and shoot than to dodge and shoot. (It is easier still is to let go of the controller and do nothing.) Rather, because it is harder to block with the shield, there is a greater possibility of the human Dark Knight player letting a shot go past the shield than of the human Cyber Ninja player. Even if the Dark Knight lets three shots through per hour, if the Cyber Ninja can get hit by less shots per hour, and I believe he can, he will win. (There's also strength of the shot and HP of the borgs to factor in, but I believe they're about the same.)

If you look at the strategies for almost all the characters, the best strategy is to stay away and shoot. Coming in close for a melee attack is risky as most melee attacks have a considerable after lag if the attack misses, leaving the borg open to attack. Thus, the two best qualities to have are range attacks and speed for dodging.

On to Gold Hero, he has good range and speed when transformed. On top of that, he has four jumps, five if transformed on the ground, and is cheap compared to other top and high tier borgs. I agree that his X attack is bad; any good Gold Hero would not use it. Thus the disadvantages of the X attack are irrelevant; it won't even be used. This leaves him with his B range, which is strong, 10 clip, and reloads fast. His B is easily his best attack; I'm not sure why you put that in the con list. Speaking of cons, his only major con he has is his need to transform, but all he has to do is stall for a while, then transform while the opponent is reloading. He may get hit a few times, but his firepower and low cost make up for it.

About Sirius, if you look at the updated tier list, he is in the undecided tier. And the beam sweep was taken into account in the discussion.

This post ended up being way longer than I meant it to be.

Attachments:

[Dogmantra]

Nov 14, 2010 3:44:51 GMT njayhuang said:

But it is assumed that the borg is played close to maximum potential.

Which goes ahead and confirms that making a tier list is completely fruitless since if you're playing everything to its maximum potential (or close to it) you will only be playing it against the things it counters, in which case everything is simultaneously in God Tier and Trash Tier at the same time.

Except Carrier Helicopter. That thing just sucks.

[Frozazen]

wow... gg njay.. and look at your messages, will you? or did you already see it?

so Doggy, would you say that every single borg would be in the same tier?

if you play flame dragon versus halo death eye, or even death eye, then i think tha tyou would agree that flame dragon would win.

and as for spamming, i believe that dillybar64 has conveniently left out the option of limiting each borg to one, like the rules i had spelled out in the tier list thread. if each player had a max of 4000 gf energy, then you could factor in cost effectiveness, adding another classification on the tier list.

basically, there is a tier list, and making it requires us to just look at each borg, and see what it can do to all other borgs. if it has a moveset that can take out most other borgs, then it will move up in the tier list.

but the thing that makes gotcha force different, and more fun than other games would be it's team battle format. the fullest potential of gotcha force can only be obtained through 2v2 matches. i think we all agree that if you had two good players in a 1on1, then the whole match would take all day, when one player loses consciousness from fatigue. a 2v2 match could go in all sorts of directions, and that's why you're allowed a partner in story mode, and that's why the Support type borgs were created. so in reality, there are two tier lists, one for 1v1, and another for teams. say one team has two cyber ninjas, and the other has an Isis witch and a death icbm. the battle could really go either way, as the cyber ninjas have to kill their opponents fast, because if they stall, they're dead, and they lost one cyber ninja each, and if we add in the one borg only rule, then that did a large number to the cyber ninja team, as they lost two really good borgs.

we can really only look at other games as a model, because gotcha force has a completely different play style if you look at the 2v2 concept that Capcom tried to make happen.

WE NEED MOER TOURNAMENTS!

i actually love these debate that we have on the tier list. it helps me understand more about gothca force.

[Dogmantra]

Nov 14, 2010 19:40:08 GMT Frozazen said:

so Doggy, would you say that every single borg would be in the same tier?

No, I'd say that since there is no coherent metagame, if you merely assume that every borg is used to (close to) maximum potential, you'll always be playing against your counter and therefore (nearly) every borg will be in both tiers - god and trash.

[Deleted]

I never liked it when people put games characters in teirs.

[Frozazen]

^ why not? it's not like most people have the skill to play them anyways.

and if each borg had their counter, i'm pretty sure some borgs can be used as a counter for a lot more borgs than others, so thus the tier list.

and don't forget the 2v2 meta. if we could somehow meet regularly, then we could figure out the tier list for gotcha.

[Dyrozix]

frankly i use the revolver gunman soo much its not funny
im so good with it that i used 3 gunmans and a billy to beat the great dragon parade

it depends on how well u use the borgs

but some borgs are designed to be amazing
like g-red